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niceguyedy
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Joined: 21 Oct 2010
Posts: 60
Location: Toronto, ON
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 Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 8:53 am Post subject: Is Helio bigger than Carlos? |
 #1 |
We all know the story of how Helio developed the jiu jitsu taught to his brother Carlos by Maeda. Helio had no choice as he was too small and frail compared to the other Gracies, and the majority of the moves required "brute strength"
"Highly influential in the development of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu was Helio Gracie, Carlos’s younger brother. All the Gracies were slight of frame, but Helio was particularly small and frail. He even suffered from spells of dizziness that prevented him from attending school. Young Helio would spend his days watching the others teach all day long. He observed more closely than anyone realized, because one day when Carlos was unable to make it to a private class, Helio offered to teach the student. Helio was sixteen years old and weighed 140 pounds, and the student was skeptical but agreed. At the end of the lesson the student was so impressed with Helio’s teaching style that he asked Carlos if Helio could be his teacher. From that day on Helio Gracie became a full instructor at the academy."
source: http://www.graciehemetjiujitsu.com/history/
How come when ever I see a picture of the two brothers, Helio looks a lot bigger?
(not trying to offend, just interested to know)
I posted a couple of examples...
any thoughts?
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billiniraq
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Joined: 12 Jun 2010
Posts: 1256
Location: Ohio
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| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 9:08 am Post subject: |
#2 |
It's important to keep in mind the frame of reference. Helio was born in 1913 and it was in 1929 that he famously first helped out when Carlos was late. He was only 16 yrs old at the time. Carlos was born in 1903, making him a full 10 yrs older than Helio. Heck, Carlos didn't even start training until he was 14. Helio was only 1 at the time!
That said, at the time those events took place, and even before then, it's safe to say Helio was likely very small.
The pictures you're displaying are of two men in the later part of their life.
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niceguyedy
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Joined: 21 Oct 2010
Posts: 60
Location: Toronto, ON
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| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 9:31 am Post subject: |
#3 |
| billiniraq wrote: |
It's important to keep in mind the frame of reference. Helio was born in 1913 and it was in 1929 that he famously first helped out when Carlos was late. He was only 16 yrs old at the time. Carlos was born in 1903, making him a full 10 yrs older than Helio. Heck, Carlos didn't even start training until he was 14. Helio was only 1 at the time!
That said, at the time those events took place, and even before then, it's safe to say Helio was likely very small.
The pictures you're displaying are of two men in the later part of their life. |
I get your point, and I had not thought of the age difference/physical development
Also not sure what you mean by this
| billiniraq wrote: |
| He was only 16 yrs old at the time. Carlos was born in 1903, making him a full 10 yrs older than Helio. Heck, Carlos didn't even start training until he was 14. Helio was only 1 at the time! |
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AaronFelker
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Joined: 25 Jul 2010
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Location: San Antonio, TX
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| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 9:32 am Post subject: |
#4 |
I've met (and been strangled by) Royler, and he's *tiny.* From what I understand, he's about the same size as Helio was. I doubt that he's much heavier than 140 even now.
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niceguyedy
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Joined: 21 Oct 2010
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Location: Toronto, ON
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| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 9:35 am Post subject: |
#5 |
| AaronFelker wrote: |
| I've met (and been strangled by) Royler, and he's *tiny.* From what I understand, he's about the same size as Helio was. I doubt that he's much heavier than 140 even now. |
Any idea what weight Carlos would have been at later in life?
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waterrob
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Joined: 19 Jul 2011
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Location: Flagstaff
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| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 9:59 am Post subject: Re: Is Helio bigger than Carlos? |
#6 |
| niceguyedy wrote: |
We all know the story of how Helio developed the jiu jitsu taught to his brother Carlos by Maeda. Helio had no choice as he was too small and frail compared to the other Gracies, and the majority of the moves required "brute strength"
[ |
I have heard this before, and always found it interesting. Maeda taught the family judo (which was still known as Kano jujutsu at the time), where the main premise is that technique trumps strength. Did some of the maximum efficiency get lost, and get re-discovered by Helio? None of the techniques should have required "brute strength" if done correctly. I am interested in the transition between the two arts, which I think are actually one and the same, and have just evolved differently due to different sport rule sets and emphases (I honestly think BJJ is closer to judo as Kano developed it than judo in the post-Olympic era is).
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OrangeJuice
Joined: 07 Jan 2011
Posts: 72
Location: Maryland
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| Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 6:28 pm Post subject: |
#7 |
| He's just taller than Carlos, but Carlos was probably stronger at that time.
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memrylestravled
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Joined: 03 Apr 2010
Posts: 184
Location: Southern Pines, North Carolina
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 8:11 am Post subject: |
#8 |
Regardless of how small the Gracies were back then, anyone ever noticed they just keep getting bigger? Rener and Ryron are pretty tall! What, like, 6'4"? Kinda crazy how the family of smaller people altered the sport we now do and their younger generations just continue to grow..
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"If you think, you're late, if you're late, you muscle, if you muscle, you tire, if you tire, you die, when you die is when you tap."
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Pikachu
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Joined: 28 Jun 2011
Posts: 155
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 11:33 am Post subject: |
#9 |
| memrylestravled wrote: |
| Regardless of how small the Gracies were back then, anyone ever noticed they just keep getting bigger? Rener and Ryron are pretty tall! What, like, 6'4"? Kinda crazy how the family of smaller people altered the sport we now do and their younger generations just continue to grow.. |
Gotta, bear in mind people now are generally a lot taller than x years ago because of improved nutrition and the average height continues to increase.
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memrylestravled
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Joined: 03 Apr 2010
Posts: 184
Location: Southern Pines, North Carolina
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 11:53 am Post subject: |
#10 |
| Pikachu wrote: |
| memrylestravled wrote: |
| Regardless of how small the Gracies were back then, anyone ever noticed they just keep getting bigger? Rener and Ryron are pretty tall! What, like, 6'4"? Kinda crazy how the family of smaller people altered the sport we now do and their younger generations just continue to grow.. |
Gotta, bear in mind people now are generally a lot taller than x years ago because of improved nutrition and the average height continues to increase. |
Well yeah, of course. I just found it slightly ironic in a way. A sport designed for smaller, weaker opponents by smaller, weaker guys is now taught by taller, stronger guys. Kinda funny how the world and life works out is all. Rener and Ryron are avid on staying strict with the Gracie Diet too.
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"If you think, you're late, if you're late, you muscle, if you muscle, you tire, if you tire, you die, when you die is when you tap."
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billiniraq
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Joined: 12 Jun 2010
Posts: 1256
Location: Ohio
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 1:52 pm Post subject: |
#11 |
| niceguyedy wrote: |
| billiniraq wrote: |
It's important to keep in mind the frame of reference. Helio was born in 1913 and it was in 1929 that he famously first helped out when Carlos was late. He was only 16 yrs old at the time. Carlos was born in 1903, making him a full 10 yrs older than Helio. Heck, Carlos didn't even start training until he was 14. Helio was only 1 at the time!
That said, at the time those events took place, and even before then, it's safe to say Helio was likely very small.
The pictures you're displaying are of two men in the later part of their life. |
I get your point, and I had not thought of the age difference/physical development
Also not sure what you mean by this
| billiniraq wrote: |
| He was only 16 yrs old at the time. Carlos was born in 1903, making him a full 10 yrs older than Helio. Heck, Carlos didn't even start training until he was 14. Helio was only 1 at the time! |
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Just pointing out that, to a 26 yr old, a 16 year old is still pretty small and fragile. That size difference likely lasted for a little while! It makes sense that an older brother would see his brother as little for a while. Heck...I still think of my little brother as perpetually 5...He's 27 now...lol!
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