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noosphere
Joined: 02 Jun 2008
Posts: 29
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 Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 12:04 pm Post subject: Yet more evidence of knife danger |
 #1 |
"Two police officers were seriously injured and a knife-wielding man died after shots were fired outside a mall in Barrie, Ont., on Sunday morning, police said...
Witnesses told the Barrie Examiner they believed one officer was stabbed in the neck and the other in the arm before the pair chased down the suspect and opened fire."
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2009/07/05/barrie-police.html
So here we have two trained, armed policemen seriously injured by one knife-wielding man.
Unfortunately, we don't know how well trained any of the people involved were, or the details of how the incident progressed: were the officers completely surprised by the man's knife attack? how much distance did they keep between themselves and the assailant? (obviously not enough) etc..
Still, it's pretty clear that even against trained, armed police, a knife can be very dangerous. |
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jackjitsu
3 thumbs up
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
Posts: 16135
Location: Raleigh, NC
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| Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 12:08 pm Post subject: |
#2 |
There was an experiment done where a large group of cops where put into a mock "scenario" they had to handle. They werent told what would happen, they just had to deal with it.
The guy they had to deal with pulled out a mock knife and "virtually stabbed" them several times and ran.
After the experiment was over, only 1 out of 50? or so cops even realized a knife attack had taken place *during* the encounter! Most had NO IDEA there was a knife at all!
So yes, its VERY likely they were completely surprised.
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CFPMMA
Joined: 27 Jan 2007
Posts: 564
Location: NATION'S Capital!
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| Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 12:35 pm Post subject: |
#3 |
That says more about the "Police" than it does about knives...
Or maybe it says more about their training? Maybe both.
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noosphere
Joined: 02 Jun 2008
Posts: 29
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| Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 2:55 pm Post subject: |
#4 |
| jackjitsu wrote: |
There was an experiment done where a large group of cops where put into a mock "scenario" they had to handle. They werent told what would happen, they just had to deal with it.
The guy they had to deal with pulled out a mock knife and "virtually stabbed" them several times and ran.
After the experiment was over, only 1 out of 50? or so cops even realized a knife attack had taken place *during* the encounter! Most had NO IDEA there was a knife at all!
So yes, its VERY likely they were completely surprised. |
I bet they'd know if they had been really stabbed instead of "virtually stabbed". Of course, by then it'd be too late. |
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jackjitsu
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Joined: 17 Oct 2006
Posts: 16135
Location: Raleigh, NC
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| Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 3:12 pm Post subject: |
#5 |
I dont think thats true either. In real life scenarios, it is commonly reported that they had no idea they had been stabbed until the attacker was already gone and they saw the blood leaking through their shirt.
_________________
New to this site? Please review the rules
" Its CRUCIAL to train with the GI to have the finest technique." - Marcelo Garcia - worlds best NO GI grappler
"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent" -- Thomas Jefferson
Carlos Gracie ---> Carlos Gracie Jr. ---> Nelson Monteiro ---> Marcelo Pereira ---> My blue belt
Carlos Gracie ---> Carlson Gracie --->Mario Sperry ---> Carlos Aveline ---> Odie Neto ---> My purple belt
Carlos Gracie ---> Helio Gracie ---> Royce Gracie ---> Billy Dowey/Jason Culbreth ---> My brown belt |
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flankwood
Joined: 03 Mar 2009
Posts: 282
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 4:26 pm Post subject: |
#6 |
| A long while back my dad showed me a cut he got from a knife that was a day old. Apparently, a drunk guy at the beach was beating the hell out of his wife; drunk; and when my dad mounted him, the guy stabed him in between the ribs with a pocket knife (Before my old man collar choked him out). Fotunately the blade was short but my dad didn't even notice it happened till he got in the shower after returning home. He, and other martial artists I've read/heard about or talked to say they'd much rather deal with a handgun at close range than a knife. The fact that a sneak knife attack goes unnotice is a big reason victims blead to death, internally or externally, before they can get med help. |
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RAREBREED
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Joined: 30 Oct 2008
Posts: 289
Location: San Francisco
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| Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 4:28 pm Post subject: |
#7 |
| There used to be videos on YouTube that demo'ed how there really is no real "knife defense." |
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SavageKitsune
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Joined: 19 Apr 2009
Posts: 1487
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| Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:12 am Post subject: |
#8 |
Oooo! Oooo! We're talking about knives!!! I loooooooove knives!!! 
| jackjitsu wrote: |
| I dont think thats true either. In real life scenarios, it is commonly reported that they had no idea they had been stabbed until the attacker was already gone and they saw the blood leaking through their shirt. |
That is true. I have had some knife training, and we were taught that usually it just feels like you were punched- you usually don't feel the blade going in. And it's hard to see in a scuffle, unless the guy is dumb enough to take it out and wave it around as a show of threat. Someone who knows their stuff will not let you see that they have a knife until after they've gotten you with it. Likely a few times.
I would *totally* rather face a gun than a knife (especially in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing). You can pretty much count on getting cut- and depending on where he got you, how deep, slash vs stab- it can either handicap your fighting ability or leave you bleeding out rapidly. We were shown some really shocking ER photos of people carved up (literally) in knife fights.
A good exercise is to look at people on the street and try to spot their knives (and other weapons)... look for the clips in their pockets or waistbands, look for them subconsciously touching the area frequently (I do that myself, all the time). It's very valuable to expect- and be able to spot- a knife or other weapon on the thug you're squaring off with.
Seven out of ten males in the US regularly carry a knife on them (and that's the general populace; if you were polling just the Bad Guys, the percentage would undoubtedly be higher).
I always carry two- a straight-blade Spiderco on my right and a serrated on the left. I count my knife training as some of the best-spent training hours ever. (At the ends of the seminars, they took us out in the parking lot where they had a big side of beef on a pole and wrapped in denim, so we could practice the techniques with our own live blades!)  If you have access to good knife training, take advantage of it! Those of us who cross train in CMA's find that many techniques adapt to knife work even if it isn't in the curriculum. I've found that several open-hand forms adapted really well to one or two short knives (and double sticks, too, but that's another tangent...)
Funny true story... I was once part of a group of folks who'd volunteered to set up a bunch of EZ-Ups and other structures for a camping event. We were staking down poles and things, and one guy was paying out the rope... he said, "We need a knife," The entire circle of ten or so people simutaneously reached into our right pockets, flicked open a folding knife <ClickClickClickClickClickClickClick> and held it out- and there we stood in a little ring with all our blades pointing in, like we'd choreographed it. It was pretty funny.
Did I mention I love knives?!  |
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BADDLEGG
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Joined: 26 Apr 2009
Posts: 143
Location: Behind you look out. RNC booya.
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| Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 4:09 am Post subject: |
#9 |
I think this demonstrates why we need stiffer knife control laws. If only we removed all sharp objects people wouldn't be attacked like these attacks. We need the goverment to step in and make more laws to protect us.  |
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JTRAMPAS
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Joined: 14 Aug 2008
Posts: 1050
Location: ATLANTA
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| Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 5:12 am Post subject: |
#10 |
although there may be a real threat from knives....id still much rather face someone with a knife than a gun...i keep replaying that old scene from indiana jones in my head over and over again. 
now keep in mind im talking about a person trained to use a gun.....not the boyz in the hood style wannabe thug that probably couldnt hit the broadside of a barn with a 12gauge...
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SavageKitsune
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Joined: 19 Apr 2009
Posts: 1487
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| Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 5:42 am Post subject: |
#11 |
| JTRAMPAS wrote: |
i keep replaying that old scene from indiana jones in my head over and over again.
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That was a seminal moment for me as well. However, THAT guy's main mistake was to start by showing off instead of attacking immediately. That's one reason why you don't brandish your weapon(s), you just get down to business. |
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the oompa-loompa
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Joined: 20 Oct 2008
Posts: 123
Location: bergen,norway
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| Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 6:33 am Post subject: |
#12 |
"yet more evidence of knife danger"
forget about the thread starter...
"Oooo! Oooo! We're talking about knives!!! I loooooooove knives!!!"
"I always carry two- a straight-blade Spiderco on my right and a serrated on the left"
"At the ends of the seminars, they took us out in the parking lot where they had a big side of beef on a pole and wrapped in denim, so we could practice the techniques with our own live blades!"
"That's one reason why you don't brandish your weapon(s), you just get down to business"
don't you guys and girls see that YOU are the knife threat?
LEAD BY EXAMPLE!
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SavageKitsune
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Joined: 19 Apr 2009
Posts: 1487
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| Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:07 am Post subject: |
#13 |
| the oompa-loompa wrote: |
| "yet more evidence of knife danger" |
I'm only dangerous if you're the Bad Guy. |
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JTRAMPAS
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Joined: 14 Aug 2008
Posts: 1050
Location: ATLANTA
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| Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:52 am Post subject: |
#14 |
yeah...im a big fan of law abiding citizens to be able to carry any form of protection they like....whether that may be a gun, knife, taser, pepper spray...whatever...the criminals will be carrying anyways!
remember....george washington didnt use free speech to defeat the brits...he shot them
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Purple belt under Fabio Costa and Dande Santos
I'd rather be rolling!!!!!! |
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flankwood
Joined: 03 Mar 2009
Posts: 282
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 1:10 pm Post subject: |
#15 |
| JTRAMPAS wrote: |
yeah...im a big fan of law abiding citizens to be able to carry any form of protection they like....whether that may be a gun, knife, taser, pepper spray...whatever...the criminals will be carrying anyways!
remember....george washington didnt use free speech to defeat the brits...he shot them |
Worried about another country coming in and taking your rights? I hear this all the time, good people should be allowed to have guns,...but how do you judge that as a gun salesman...and would you even do it? I mean, a sale is a sale right? I loved hunting in the US but see no need in Hand guns. |
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jackjitsu
3 thumbs up
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
Posts: 16135
Location: Raleigh, NC
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| Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 1:50 pm Post subject: |
#16 |
| flankwood wrote: |
| JTRAMPAS wrote: |
yeah...im a big fan of law abiding citizens to be able to carry any form of protection they like....whether that may be a gun, knife, taser, pepper spray...whatever...the criminals will be carrying anyways!
remember....george washington didnt use free speech to defeat the brits...he shot them |
Worried about another country coming in and taking your rights? I hear this all the time, good people should be allowed to have guns,...but how do you judge that as a gun salesman...and would you even do it? I mean, a sale is a sale right? I loved hunting in the US but see no need in Hand guns. |
None of the above was the intention of the USA's founding fathers when the 2nd amendment was created.
Research the ACTUAL reason the 2nd amendment exists if you wish to understand it.
Nazi germany may never have happened if germany had a 2nd amendment.
_________________
New to this site? Please review the rules
" Its CRUCIAL to train with the GI to have the finest technique." - Marcelo Garcia - worlds best NO GI grappler
"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent" -- Thomas Jefferson
Carlos Gracie ---> Carlos Gracie Jr. ---> Nelson Monteiro ---> Marcelo Pereira ---> My blue belt
Carlos Gracie ---> Carlson Gracie --->Mario Sperry ---> Carlos Aveline ---> Odie Neto ---> My purple belt
Carlos Gracie ---> Helio Gracie ---> Royce Gracie ---> Billy Dowey/Jason Culbreth ---> My brown belt |
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bma_mat
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Joined: 16 Mar 2007
Posts: 10667
Location: Somewhere
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| Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 1:53 pm Post subject: |
#17 |
| jackjitsu wrote: |
| flankwood wrote: |
| JTRAMPAS wrote: |
yeah...im a big fan of law abiding citizens to be able to carry any form of protection they like....whether that may be a gun, knife, taser, pepper spray...whatever...the criminals will be carrying anyways!
remember....george washington didnt use free speech to defeat the brits...he shot them |
Worried about another country coming in and taking your rights? I hear this all the time, good people should be allowed to have guns,...but how do you judge that as a gun salesman...and would you even do it? I mean, a sale is a sale right? I loved hunting in the US but see no need in Hand guns. |
None of the above was the intention of the USA's founding fathers when the 2nd amendment was created.
Research the ACTUAL reason the 2nd amendment exists if you wish to understand it.
Nazi germany may never have happened if germany had a 2nd amendment. |
I think the biggest most important things about citizens being armed is it can prevent a corrupt goverment from taking over, since the citizens will always outnumber a regime that's trying to take over the country. It's generally so the people can take the power from the goverment if things go wrong imho.
Then again, not sure, that's just what I've understood.
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| kuangren wrote: |
| ...every time a blue belt quits BJJ, Rickson Gracie kills a kitten!! You don't want any more kittens to die, DO YOU!?... |
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flankwood
Joined: 03 Mar 2009
Posts: 282
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 2:26 pm Post subject: |
#18 |
| jackjitsu wrote: |
| flankwood wrote: |
| JTRAMPAS wrote: |
yeah...im a big fan of law abiding citizens to be able to carry any form of protection they like....whether that may be a gun, knife, taser, pepper spray...whatever...the criminals will be carrying anyways!
remember....george washington didnt use free speech to defeat the brits...he shot them |
Worried about another country coming in and taking your rights? I hear this all the time, good people should be allowed to have guns,...but how do you judge that as a gun salesman...and would you even do it? I mean, a sale is a sale right? I loved hunting in the US but see no need in Hand guns. |
None of the above was the intention of the USA's founding fathers when the 2nd amendment was created.
Research the ACTUAL reason the 2nd amendment exists if you wish to understand it.
Nazi germany may never have happened if germany had a 2nd amendment. |
Well it's still a big debate over what the founding fathers intended; not knowing a thing about assault riffles, hand guns, tazers or pepper spray. If we follow the founding fathers intent, we're all allowed to carry a muzzle loading black powder riffle. And to think the right to guns is to defend against an oppresive regime...does anyome really think the Gov is gonna come in a take your rights? And would anybody really even try to fight back against the military and local police? You wouldn't stand a chance. And Nazi Germany was a sort of voluntary regime. Germans would not have shot anybody. Most went along with it. And the Jews would have lost a gun fight anyway. And I live in Germany now and gun control is a very nice piece of mind...I grew up in the projects in south Texas and that place needs some big time gun control!!! I just think we can't accept the Billof Rights as law. The future changes and has changed and we need to be sensible enough to change too. The weapons of today are different and the right to own some of them is dangerous. But to each there own I guess.
But this is a big issue and prob. not worth debating in the BJJ forum. But I'm game if anyone wants to I suppose. |
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jiujitman
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Joined: 05 Jun 2008
Posts: 1461
Location: Brunswick Georgia
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| Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 2:46 pm Post subject: |
#19 |
I don't see nothing wrong with law abiding citizens owning guns.
Can someone please find a poll that says or disclaims that violent crimes which handguns are used are commited by people that don't have a legal right to own a gun. i am at work...
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jiujitman
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Joined: 05 Jun 2008
Posts: 1461
Location: Brunswick Georgia
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| Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 2:50 pm Post subject: |
#20 |
Oh great, Locke just got on.
I am sure he will find a poll that disclaims my view. 
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"Do not be too moral. You may cheat yourself out of much life. Aim above morality. Be not simply good; be good for something."- Henry David Thoreau |
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