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KarateKidd
Joined: 03 Aug 2009
Posts: 29
Location: Nottingham, England
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 Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 8:24 am Post subject: Rude to decline to roll with someone? |
 #1 |
| Hey guys, not sure how to go about this. Our training session consists of 1hr 30 mins of technique/drills and then 30 mins open rolling - usually with 5-6 different opponents (5 min rounds) however both times ive rolled with this white belt I seem to get hurt. Im also a white belt and not been training that long myself but I have gotten over the "newbie spazz" and am quite relaxed while rolling, infact I get annoyed at myself if I win by sheer strength however he still is very much in this frame of mind. Once he cranked a kimura on me that hard i literally screamed in pain I didnt even have time to tap im pretty sure he was close to breaking something but thankfully the soreness went away after a few days but it wasnt fun. Just yesterday I was rolling with him and everytime I roll with him it feels like hes competing at the mundials and I am quite scared incase he catches me with a submission and cranks it on far too quick. I dont want to seem rude by not rolling with him since I havent seen anyone else not roll with him and we arent a big gym so we know each other fairly well and during the rolling session theres not always enough of us to "choose" 5-6 rounds its a case of rolling once with everyone. My instructor is quite weary of him too as he tried the most stupid move to get out of a guillotine last week he tried to do a forward roll over the guys head, lucky he saw it and caught him, stupid guy could have broke his neck. |
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jackjitsu
3 thumbs up
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
Posts: 16096
Location: Raleigh, NC
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| Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 8:29 am Post subject: |
#2 |
No its not rude and in many very cases a smart thing to do.
If your instructor is already weary of him, that makes it even easier.
I would just have a talk with the instructor on the side, explain to him you are really uncomfortable rolling with that guy, dont trust him not to injure you, and would like the instructor to make sure he doesnt pair the two of you up.
If the students get to decide their partners, then simply decline the roll. If he demands a reason, then tell him you will start rolling with him again AFTER you observe him being more controlled.
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" Its CRUCIAL to train with the GI to have the finest technique." - Marcelo Garcia - worlds best NO GI grappler
"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent" -- Thomas Jefferson
Carlos Gracie ---> Carlos Gracie Jr. ---> Nelson Monteiro ---> Marcelo Pereira ---> My blue belt
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celest
Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 268
Location: Singapore
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| Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:11 am Post subject: Re: Rude to decline to roll with someone? |
#3 |
| KarateKidd wrote: |
| Hey guys, not sure how to go about this. Our training session consists of 1hr 30 mins of technique/drills and then 30 mins open rolling - usually with 5-6 different opponents (5 min rounds) however both times ive rolled with this white belt I seem to get hurt. Im also a white belt and not been training that long myself but I have gotten over the "newbie spazz" and am quite relaxed while rolling, infact I get annoyed at myself if I win by sheer strength however he still is very much in this frame of mind. Once he cranked a kimura on me that hard i literally screamed in pain I didnt even have time to tap im pretty sure he was close to breaking something but thankfully the soreness went away after a few days but it wasnt fun. Just yesterday I was rolling with him and everytime I roll with him it feels like hes competing at the mundials and I am quite scared incase he catches me with a submission and cranks it on far too quick. I dont want to seem rude by not rolling with him since I havent seen anyone else not roll with him and we arent a big gym so we know each other fairly well and during the rolling session theres not always enough of us to "choose" 5-6 rounds its a case of rolling once with everyone. My instructor is quite weary of him too as he tried the most stupid move to get out of a guillotine last week he tried to do a forward roll over the guys head, lucky he saw it and caught him, stupid guy could have broke his neck. |
I'm glad you posted this entry -- similar background context (very small class and we also know each other fairly well) although mine is of a different nature from yours.
There's this guy who's got a mild reputation for being a perv and there was this once he held me in a side control with his arm between my legs and up my groin -- I'm fairly sure that a strong 21 year old guy who is 15kg (at least 30lbs) heavier than me doesn't need to do that to control me if there's sufficient chest-to-chest contact (I'm ok with the chest cos the padded sportsbra is there). Also, in class we've always been taught never to put your arm between a person's legs, much less do a hold with it. Since then I've always been a bit uncomfortable rolling with him, but it's 'random' round-robin rotation so I guess it's very impolite for me to refuse rolling with him.
For now, if I have to roll with him, i just tolerate it and try to reduce the body contact in rolling by getting my elbows and knees in. ALOT. 
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jackjitsu
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Joined: 17 Oct 2006
Posts: 16096
Location: Raleigh, NC
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| Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:20 am Post subject: |
#4 |
Does he old his other training partners in side control the same way??? Or just you? 
_________________
New to this site? Please review the rules
" Its CRUCIAL to train with the GI to have the finest technique." - Marcelo Garcia - worlds best NO GI grappler
"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent" -- Thomas Jefferson
Carlos Gracie ---> Carlos Gracie Jr. ---> Nelson Monteiro ---> Marcelo Pereira ---> My blue belt
Carlos Gracie ---> Carlson Gracie --->Mario Sperry ---> Carlos Aveline ---> Odie Neto ---> My purple belt
Carlos Gracie ---> Helio Gracie ---> Royce Gracie ---> Billy Dowey/Jason Culbreth ---> My brown belt |
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celest
Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 268
Location: Singapore
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| Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:24 am Post subject: |
#5 |
| jackjitsu wrote: |
| Does he old his other training partners in side control the same way??? Or just you? |
So far, noone has complained about him holding them this way. Then again, there are only 2 females in my class and the other lady's a butch, so...
Would you hold a side control like that, regardless of the size of the opponent?
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KarateKidd
Joined: 03 Aug 2009
Posts: 29
Location: Nottingham, England
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| Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:31 am Post subject: |
#6 |
| Theres a girl in class who I get on really well with and roll with quite alot I would never do that kind of side control, to a girl or a guy. I normally control her in side control with my arms under her head, knee to her ribs and chest to chest also. |
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celest
Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 268
Location: Singapore
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| Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:39 am Post subject: |
#7 |
| KarateKidd wrote: |
| Theres a girl in class who I get on really well with and roll with quite alot I would never do that kind of side control, to a girl or a guy. I normally control her in side control with my arms under her head, knee to her ribs and chest to chest also. |
So far, he's the only one who's done the perv variation of side control on me. I usually do chest-to-chest, both arms controlling the shoulder/arm with left elbow to the jaw/side of neck, left knee to the other side of the jaw/side of neck and right knee straight out behind me.
I know it's the lesser-used version for the legs, cos most people in my class go for right knee to lower rib/hip and the left leg straight out behind them. I prefer more head/neckcontrol, because I'm smaller, so I generally can't get good control of their lower body.
(By the way, isn't it common knowledge that your arm could get locked with the legs, unless you know that you're significantly stronger?)
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KarateKidd
Joined: 03 Aug 2009
Posts: 29
Location: Nottingham, England
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| Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 11:03 am Post subject: |
#8 |
| Im very careful where I put my arms no matter what position im in, I wouldnt leave them exposed to someones legs. The girl who roll with has VERY strong legs, I know that from being on the receiving end of her triangle chokes lol. |
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jiujitsunoob
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Joined: 17 Jul 2007
Posts: 2989
Location: South East USA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 12:10 pm Post subject: |
#9 |
I think a good many wrestlers use the leg control position you specified Celest.
I'm No-Gi so I don't have the option of clothing for control.
I use it occasionally but usually only when making transitions and even then I don't grab the groin region but I cup low on the back side of their thigh near the butt or very high on their leg near their knee depending on circumstance.
I only do this when making a transition when the person is effective at making a lot of space. It is an extra controlling measure for the transition.
Once I'm settled in position I let that hold go as I want my hands free to attack.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that I have used it, my school uses it, but it's not a common occurrence for anyone.
Obviously we all are going to (and if you have done this for ANY length of time) and have been touched in places we would rather not discuss there is a difference between touching and groping.
Sounds like he was enjoying more than just jiu jitsu but everyone deserves the benefit of the doubt so - talk to the instructor about it and have him pair you up with the guy again in a normal way and observe him. If he's a perv and demonstrates it again the instructor will probabily kick his ass and kick him out.
Another tact is to call him out on it - he'll deny it and probabily talk s*** about you to everyone who will listen because his ego is hurt but you have then openly set the stage for never rolling with him again.
IF it was innocent AND he has no idea why your treating him differently then he'll probabily wonder why you aren't treating him the same as everyone else.
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Prof. Jeremy Arel
Black Belt under Roberto “Gordo” Correa
I am a Blue Belt and have been Training since 2006 - with some major breaks |
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jewjitsu
3 thumbs up
Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 489
Location: Brooklyn, NYC
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| Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 12:18 pm Post subject: |
#10 |
| Quote: |
I'm No-Gi so I don't have the option of clothing for control.
I use it occasionally but usually only when making transitions and even then I don't grab the groin region but I cup low on the back side of their thigh near the butt or very high on their leg near their knee depending on circumstance.
I only do this when making a transition when the person is effective at making a lot of space. It is an extra controlling measure for the transition. |
Agreed. I use this position so that they can't bring up the leg when I move from side control to the mount. |
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JTRAMPAS
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Joined: 14 Aug 2008
Posts: 1050
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| Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 2:22 pm Post subject: |
#11 |
next time he puts his hand there...reach under your leg, grab his wrist, then catch his a** in a triangle. even if you dont get the submission, use it to get a sweep, and then go from there. and seriously if you think this guy is just groping you on purpose i dont think you would be out of line if you "accidentally" knee him in the nuts....do that a few times and he might take the hint. 
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axe
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:03 pm Post subject: |
#12 |
| it is kinda rude to decline a roll unless you were specifically in line to roll with someone you had in mind |
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celest
Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 268
Location: Singapore
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| Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:01 pm Post subject: |
#13 |
| jiujitsunoob wrote: |
Sounds like he was enjoying more than just jiu jitsu but everyone deserves the benefit of the doubt so - talk to the instructor about it and have him pair you up with the guy again in a normal way and observe him. If he's a perv and demonstrates it again the instructor will probabily kick his ass and kick him out.
Another tact is to call him out on it - he'll deny it and probabily talk s*** about you to everyone who will listen because his ego is hurt but you have then openly set the stage for never rolling with him again.
IF it was innocent AND he has no idea why your treating him differently then he'll probabily wonder why you aren't treating him the same as everyone else. |
The great difficulty about dealing with this particular perv is that he is also very psychologically and mentally unsound -- he's the sort of guy whom if you stand next to, you could actually feel negative vibes from him! I'm serious, not kidding at all. My main instructor who is a medical doctor also thinks he needs professional help, but still lets him linger in the class because he's a lonely fella.
You're right about him talking s*** about me because his ego is hurt (I didn't know it was because his ego was hurt... you guys are such complex creatures!  ) Just two weeks ago during the ladies self-defence class, I caught him holding a girl's forearm and putting it across her chest (I don't need to be explicit, do I?) while she was on her back, supposedly learning how to do ground blocks. Of course I discussed it with him and the instructor-in-charge and he denied it. The following week, he didn't turn up "to prove his innocence" but yes, talked s*** about me to the main instructor. 
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celest
Joined: 07 Mar 2009
Posts: 268
Location: Singapore
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| Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:06 pm Post subject: |
#14 |
| JTRAMPAS wrote: |
| next time he puts his hand there...reach under your leg, grab his wrist, then catch his a** in a triangle. even if you dont get the submission, use it to get a sweep, and then go from there. and seriously if you think this guy is just groping you on purpose i dont think you would be out of line if you "accidentally" knee him in the nuts....do that a few times and he might take the hint. |
To be honest, during stand-up striking, there was this once I tried to front-snap/front-thrust his groin all the way. Like maybe a few punches to fake and then I would go for the groin target. I'm not a very good striker (I'm still more of a grappler), so he managed to block them all. I think he sensed it and he was like 'Why are you so angry?' 
I think from today, I am just going to /ignore him. I'm already trying my best to avoid him outside the mat too, but for some reason he likes to stand next to me and rant. Maybe I should try striking him in the nuts 'accidentally' while rolling, eh? 
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bryan
3 thumbs up
Joined: 26 Apr 2009
Posts: 48
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| Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:19 pm Post subject: |
#15 |
| Its not rude. I have been training for 6yrs and purple belt and its just common sense to say no at times. If they don't like it, I will bluntly tell them why. |
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steelduck
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Joined: 13 Aug 2007
Posts: 1462
Location: Helsinki, Finland - Europe
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| Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 11:07 pm Post subject: |
#16 |
Not rude.... I do it quite often, when I am too tired to roll with some young big aggressive guys. There are some persons - like the one you described - that I do not roll at all... and I say it to them politely. "You roll too hard for me to safely PRACTICE"...
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SavageKitsune
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Joined: 19 Apr 2009
Posts: 1478
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| Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:51 am Post subject: |
#17 |
We were taught that in order to have "safe space" to practice, it is important to be free to decline to work with a person if you don't feel safe for any reason. I think it's important to tell the person why, though.
Any decent instructor should have a very serious private talk with anyone accused or suspected of being sexually inappropriate with classmates.  Unless said talk makes it obvious that the incident was an accident or misunderstanding, there is no excuse for allowing a person like that to train with your group. Talk about "unsafe space"!  Forget the covert "getting back at him" crap.... you have to be able to trust your training partners; you are literally putting your life in their hands. |
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jiujitsunoob
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Joined: 17 Jul 2007
Posts: 2989
Location: South East USA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:45 am Post subject: |
#18 |
| SavageKitsune wrote: |
| you have to be able to trust your training partners; you are literally putting your life in their hands. |
So very true 
You get a 3 thumbs up from me for that comment.
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Great Grappling Brazilian Jiu Jitsu
Prof. Jeremy Arel
Black Belt under Roberto “Gordo” Correa
I am a Blue Belt and have been Training since 2006 - with some major breaks |
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mikenugs
3 thumbs up
Joined: 19 Mar 2009
Posts: 393
Location: Atlanta, Ga
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| Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 4:27 am Post subject: |
#19 |
| JTRAMPAS wrote: |
| next time he puts his hand there...reach under your leg, grab his wrist, then catch his a** in a triangle. even if you dont get the submission, use it to get a sweep, and then go from there. and seriously if you think this guy is just groping you on purpose i dont think you would be out of line if you "accidentally" knee him in the nuts....do that a few times and he might take the hint. |
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jackjitsu
3 thumbs up
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
Posts: 16096
Location: Raleigh, NC
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| Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:16 am Post subject: |
#20 |
| celest wrote: |
| jackjitsu wrote: |
| Does he hold his other training partners in side control the same way??? Or just you? |
So far, noone has complained about him holding them this way. Then again, there are only 2 females in my class and the other lady's a butch, so...
Would you hold a side control like that, regardless of the size of the opponent? |
I have occasionally held SMALLER opponents than me in side control with an arm between their leg, but sort of like and overhook through the middle, where I lift the inside leg and take their hips off the ground. These are extra wiggly technical small guys.
_________________
New to this site? Please review the rules
" Its CRUCIAL to train with the GI to have the finest technique." - Marcelo Garcia - worlds best NO GI grappler
"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent" -- Thomas Jefferson
Carlos Gracie ---> Carlos Gracie Jr. ---> Nelson Monteiro ---> Marcelo Pereira ---> My blue belt
Carlos Gracie ---> Carlson Gracie --->Mario Sperry ---> Carlos Aveline ---> Odie Neto ---> My purple belt
Carlos Gracie ---> Helio Gracie ---> Royce Gracie ---> Billy Dowey/Jason Culbreth ---> My brown belt |
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