I think women who vocalize complaints about being hit on are only doing so to make sure everyone knows they were hit on, because they want the attention, and have low enough self-esteem that they think this will somehow convince everyone else they are a "catch." My little sister is one such female, lol.
I don't think this is true at all as a generalization.
Vanilla, you're my hero. I was thinking how to sum it up without writing 10 paragraphs, and here you come along
I think it sums down to hot women complaining about it to brag, and ugly/fat women complaining about it because they like to imagine that they were hit on.
Do you really believe that the extensive history of women complaining about this kind of thing is just a big plea for attention? If so what is your basis for believing this other than that it justifies your actions? Do you also want to stand by your claim that women who don't like it should cover themselves up? Are they 'asking for it' if they don't? What else do you think they are 'asking for'?
If women don't want to socialize and interact with strangers, don't go to social locations that simple. I go to social locations because I like to socialize. I like to meet new people. That includes attractive women.
So women who go to a bar with their friends and complain that men constantly hit on them, it's their damn problem. If they don't want men talking to them, go to a restaurant (less hitting on than a bar), or go to a friend's house and play monopoly. Similar goes for dressing. There are certain clothes that are very sexual, and if you're wearing that kind of clothes, don't be upset when men attempt to pick you up. _________________ ]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]
kuangren wrote:
...every time a blue belt quits BJJ, Rickson Gracie kills a kitten!! You don't want any more kittens to die, DO YOU!?...
I think women who vocalize complaints about being hit on are only doing so to make sure everyone knows they were hit on, because they want the attention, and have low enough self-esteem that they think this will somehow convince everyone else they are a "catch." My little sister is one such female, lol.
I don't think this is true at all as a generalization.
Vanilla, you're my hero. I was thinking how to sum it up without writing 10 paragraphs, and here you come along
I think it sums down to hot women complaining about it to brag, and ugly/fat women complaining about it because they like to imagine that they were hit on.
Do you really believe that the extensive history of women complaining about this kind of thing is just a big plea for attention? If so what is your basis for believing this other than that it justifies your actions? Do you also want to stand by your claim that women who don't like it should cover themselves up? Are they 'asking for it' if they don't? What else do you think they are 'asking for'?
If women don't want to socialize and interact with strangers, don't go to social locations that simple. I go to social locations because I like to socialize. I like to meet new people. That includes attractive women.
So women who go to a bar with their friends and complain that men constantly hit on them, it's their damn problem. If they don't want men talking to them, go to a restaurant (less hitting on than a bar), or go to a friend's house and play monopoly. Similar goes for dressing. There are certain clothes that are very sexual, and if you're wearing that kind of clothes, don't be upset when men attempt to pick you up.
Except it isn't just women in tiny skirts in singles bars getting hit on all the time by random guys is it? It's also women in fairly normal clothes getting hit on while at work, doing their shopping, walking home, etc. Besides that there are plenty of reasons why a woman would be in a social place looking nice without wanting to be clumsily hit on all the time. I'm not saying that it's never ok to approach women, I'm asking that people show some appreciation of the broader context in which these actions occur, and understand why it can be a problem.
I think women who vocalize complaints about being hit on are only doing so to make sure everyone knows they were hit on, because they want the attention, and have low enough self-esteem that they think this will somehow convince everyone else they are a "catch." My little sister is one such female, lol.
I don't think this is true at all as a generalization.
Vanilla, you're my hero. I was thinking how to sum it up without writing 10 paragraphs, and here you come along
I think it sums down to hot women complaining about it to brag, and ugly/fat women complaining about it because they like to imagine that they were hit on.
Do you really believe that the extensive history of women complaining about this kind of thing is just a big plea for attention? If so what is your basis for believing this other than that it justifies your actions? Do you also want to stand by your claim that women who don't like it should cover themselves up? Are they 'asking for it' if they don't? What else do you think they are 'asking for'?
If women don't want to socialize and interact with strangers, don't go to social locations that simple. I go to social locations because I like to socialize. I like to meet new people. That includes attractive women.
So women who go to a bar with their friends and complain that men constantly hit on them, it's their damn problem. If they don't want men talking to them, go to a restaurant (less hitting on than a bar), or go to a friend's house and play monopoly. Similar goes for dressing. There are certain clothes that are very sexual, and if you're wearing that kind of clothes, don't be upset when men attempt to pick you up.
Except it isn't just women in tiny skirts in singles bars getting hit on all the time by random guys is it? It's also women in fairly normal clothes getting hit on while at work, doing their shopping, walking home, etc. Besides that there are plenty of reasons why a woman would be in a social place looking nice without wanting to be clumsily hit on all the time. I'm not saying that it's never ok to approach women, I'm asking that people show some appreciation of the broader context in which these actions occur, and understand why it can be a problem.
It's over exaggerated. The majority of men are too shy to blatantly hit on women, especially attractive ones. One thing is to try and start something once, and if you don't see it happening, leaving it at that. Another is harassing a female on a constant basis.
But back to the original topic (not original, but oh well), there is nothing wrong with starting a conversation with a woman because you are physically attracted to her.
Hell, nothing wrong with starting a conversation with someone you're not attracted to, the attraction should be a plus reason to start the conversation, because it can lead to something nice later on. _________________ ]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]
kuangren wrote:
...every time a blue belt quits BJJ, Rickson Gracie kills a kitten!! You don't want any more kittens to die, DO YOU!?...
There was no filter on this man, and that's a tough life if you choose to have that type of candor - but it's an honest life, I think. He made some homophobic/sexist comments (which made me a little bit sad when I read them). I want to contribute that to his surroundings (nature vs nurture, as Slidey said), but who knows...
If you've ever really known someone great or exceptional at anything, often times you'll find that they have tragic flaws/vices/questionable habits. I have tragic flaws, but I'm not great at much of anything (I'm ok with that) . Hence the "hubris" in my login ID (which I often regret, but thought was clever at the time); the attempt to poke fun at myself is often misconstrued as an affirmation to (online) cockiness. Everyone on these forums that knows me in real life (I think there are 6 now) knows that I'm not a guy that likes to hurt feelings, but I can also lack tact and say the wrong things to people who may be sensitive to those specific issues in an attempt to find the root of their passion (racist/prejudice/feminist/chauvinist/radical ideas). I promise you that the things I say are NOT to hurt anyones feelings, because I know I'm going to run into a lot of you at some point in time; BJJ is still a small community and it is of no benefit to me if people hate me!
Why are some people so adamantly against Macs or PCs? People who have nothing to gain from defending their personal choice of computers. These types of things interest me - but my prodding probably comes off as provoking (unintentional), and if you don't own your absolutes (never/always, etc) and seem hypocritical, I might call you on it. Not always a good way to make people like you, Tonyhubris which is why I like fighting. No matter what you believe, it's always going to be definitive. Which brings me to another dilemma entirely, I don't like to hurt people! Which is probably why my KOB isn't as good as it should be. I have footage of me IN A TOURNAMENT waiting for the ref to give me my KOB points so I could take my knee off of the poor guys sternum!
I made it tiny. I didn't want to pull a Dirtyrancher and wall-of-text you guys _________________
I think women who vocalize complaints about being hit on are only doing so to make sure everyone knows they were hit on, because they want the attention, and have low enough self-esteem that they think this will somehow convince everyone else they are a "catch." My little sister is one such female, lol.
I don't think this is true at all as a generalization.
Vanilla, you're my hero. I was thinking how to sum it up without writing 10 paragraphs, and here you come along
I think it sums down to hot women complaining about it to brag, and ugly/fat women complaining about it because they like to imagine that they were hit on.
Do you really believe that the extensive history of women complaining about this kind of thing is just a big plea for attention? If so what is your basis for believing this other than that it justifies your actions? Do you also want to stand by your claim that women who don't like it should cover themselves up? Are they 'asking for it' if they don't? What else do you think they are 'asking for'?
If women don't want to socialize and interact with strangers, don't go to social locations that simple. I go to social locations because I like to socialize. I like to meet new people. That includes attractive women.
So women who go to a bar with their friends and complain that men constantly hit on them, it's their damn problem. If they don't want men talking to them, go to a restaurant (less hitting on than a bar), or go to a friend's house and play monopoly. Similar goes for dressing. There are certain clothes that are very sexual, and if you're wearing that kind of clothes, don't be upset when men attempt to pick you up.
Except it isn't just women in tiny skirts in singles bars getting hit on all the time by random guys is it? It's also women in fairly normal clothes getting hit on while at work, doing their shopping, walking home, etc. Besides that there are plenty of reasons why a woman would be in a social place looking nice without wanting to be clumsily hit on all the time. I'm not saying that it's never ok to approach women, I'm asking that people show some appreciation of the broader context in which these actions occur, and understand why it can be a problem.
It's over exaggerated. The majority of men are too shy to blatantly hit on women, especially attractive ones. One thing is to try and start something once, and if you don't see it happening, leaving it at that. Another is harassing a female on a constant basis.
But back to the original topic (not original, but oh well), there is nothing wrong with starting a conversation with a woman because you are physically attracted to her.
Hell, nothing wrong with starting a conversation with someone you're not attracted to, the attraction should be a plus reason to start the conversation, because it can lead to something nice later on.
Please. Depends on where you live. You don't even have to leave the US. Come down to Florida for a while and see what's going on. I've been screamed at from cars and across streets and subsequently cursed at (after not responding) on multiple occasions while walking around in jeans, sneakers and a regular shirt. Almost every woman I know has similar stories.
I agree though, that there's nothing wrong with starting a conversation just because you're attracted to a woman...wrong shows up when that conversation starts with disrespect. Also though, to be fair, a woman can end a conversation if she doesn't find you tall/handsome/rich enough to keep giving you attention.
If women don't like it, put on 5-6 layers of clothes and cover your face. If you're gonna put on a miniskirt and tight top and get upset that I'm approaching you out of pure physical attraction, it's your own damn fault for provoking it.
Freakin hell! I have to cover my face?
Ok, so it's either 5 layers of clothes and a burka OR miniskirt and tight top. At least now I know what my two options are in terms of inviting unwanted attention.
Although I have worn a head scarf around my town (it was windy) and received racist verbal abuse from random yobs so your advice doesn't really work btw.
I was just pointing extremes. And I don't consider vulgar yelling from across the street as approaching women. That's just people with a lack of education making noise. They know nothing will come from it. I don't even see where this aspect comes into play. _________________ ]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]
kuangren wrote:
...every time a blue belt quits BJJ, Rickson Gracie kills a kitten!! You don't want any more kittens to die, DO YOU!?...
I was just pointing extremes. And I don't consider vulgar yelling from across the street as approaching women. That's just people with a lack of education making noise. They know nothing will come from it. I don't even see where this aspect comes into play.
Dude...what you say is really frustrating...it paints life for any woman leaving the house as if they're putting themselves on the shelf in some kind of man-mall for finding women they find pleasing to the eye. That general attitude right there is why that last bit in the video strikes a nerve with some.
You don't consider yelling from across the street to be an advance, but some men do. It's how they get women. These aren't construction workers yelling down from buildings or trucks flying by and honking. If I had smiled instead of ignoring, I would have been approached instead of insulted.
Either way though, men felt they had a right to make advances regardless of how I was dressed...which I don't disagree with. If you find someone attractive, you have the right to approach respectfully and I have the right to ignore respectfully, ESPECIALLY when it's at work/school/church/places I'm not going expressly to attract men. Straight up, I get hit on more frequently in day to day life than when I went to clubs...I don't go to clubs/bars anymore and being approached when going about life is still an issue.
At the end of the day, you don't know what's going on in the heads of all men...not even most.
Scene: Construction site, inner city. Enter two contruction workers, seperated by about 20 yards.
Worker 1: (loud whistle to get Worker 2's attention)
Worker 2: (looks up to respond to Worker 1)
Lady across the street in tight miniskirt and tube top: Damn pigs! Everywhere I go, cat call, cat call, cat call! Just leave me alone!!!! _________________ Carlos Gracie, Sr. → Carlson Gracie → Rodrigo Medeiros → Jeff Messina → Me
Scene: Construction site, inner city. Enter two contruction workers, seperated by about 20 yards.
Worker 1: (loud whistle to get Worker 2's attention)
Worker 2: (looks up to respond to Worker 1)
Lady across the street in tight miniskirt and tube top: Damn pigs! Everywhere I go, cat call, cat call, cat call! Just leave me alone!!!!
Scene: Internet Enter guy at keyboard
Guy: (uses examples that seldom happen in real life or are disproportionate in his experiences to prove "point" about society as a whole and justify bad behavior of others)
Last edited by stillwaters on Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:53 am; edited 1 time in total
I was just pointing extremes. And I don't consider vulgar yelling from across the street as approaching women. That's just people with a lack of education making noise. They know nothing will come from it. I don't even see where this aspect comes into play.
It comes into play because I don't think I am to blame for the verbal abuse because I wore a head scarf.
If you find a woman attractive and you ask her out thats all fine and dandy. No problemo. My problem is when you start telling me it is her fault you did something. You and you alone are responsible for your own actions.
bma_mat wrote:
it's your own damn fault for provoking it
Just because a miniskirt triggers a certain reaction from you your actions are still your own responsibility.
I'm pretty sure you are a sound guy IRL so maybe you shouldn't be using phrases that come out of rapists mouths.
I was just pointing extremes. And I don't consider vulgar yelling from across the street as approaching women. That's just people with a lack of education making noise. They know nothing will come from it. I don't even see where this aspect comes into play.
It comes into play because I don't think I am to blame for the verbal abuse because I wore a head scarf.
If you find a woman attractive and you ask her out thats all fine and dandy. No problemo. My problem is when you start telling me it is her fault you did something. You and you alone are responsible for your own actions.
bma_mat wrote:
it's your own damn fault for provoking it
Just because a miniskirt triggers a certain reaction from you your actions are still your own responsibility.
I'm pretty sure you are a sound guy IRL so maybe you shouldn't be using phrases that come out of rapists mouths.
IF she's revealing 80% of her body to the crowd, she is asking for the attention. Those clothes are DESIGNED to attract looks. DESIGNED for it.
And to compare me to a rapist, I swear, the only place I've heard these kinds of arguments are on American television. I've traveled to many countries, and never come across comments like that. Only on TV.
I'm not gonna generalize here, but seriously? _________________ ]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]
kuangren wrote:
...every time a blue belt quits BJJ, Rickson Gracie kills a kitten!! You don't want any more kittens to die, DO YOU!?...
I once dated a girl who liked to wear min skirts. I asked her why, once, and she said she just liked wearing them - it was nothing to do with the fact that she had an 'audience'.
Sometimes - I don't know how often - people do things for themselves, and would do them the same way if nobody else was there.
Sometimes people assume that every woman they see is dressed for their benefit.
It's also interesting to note that what qualifies as 'dressed provocatively' differs in place, and time: show a bit of ankle a century ago, and it was scandalous; show your hair in Saudi Arabia and you'll get the 'She was asking for attention!' response.
I once dated a girl who liked to wear min skirts. I asked her why, once, and she said she just liked wearing them - it was nothing to do with the fact that she had an 'audience'.
Sometimes - I don't know how often - people do things for themselves, and would do them the same way if nobody else was there.
Sometimes people assume that every woman they see is dressed for their benefit.
It's also interesting to note that what qualifies as 'dressed provocatively' differs in place, and time: show a bit of ankle a century ago, and it was scandalous; show your hair in Saudi Arabia and you'll get the 'She was asking for attention!' response.
I'm not saying that women consciously do it. It's the "look" now. Fashion changes a lot. But if she is wearing something, that men are hardwired to respond to sexually in their minds, it doesn't matter why she's wearing it, the results will be the same. And any person with a few neurons will know that this is the kind of reaction that will bring upon. _________________ ]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]
kuangren wrote:
...every time a blue belt quits BJJ, Rickson Gracie kills a kitten!! You don't want any more kittens to die, DO YOU!?...
Scene: Construction site, inner city. Enter two contruction workers, seperated by about 20 yards.
Worker 1: (loud whistle to get Worker 2's attention)
Worker 2: (looks up to respond to Worker 1)
Lady across the street in tight miniskirt and tube top: Damn pigs! Everywhere I go, cat call, cat call, cat call! Just leave me alone!!!!
Scene: Internet Enter guy at keyboard
Guy: (uses examples that seldom happen in real life or are disproportionate in his experiences to prove "point" about society as a whole and justify bad behavior of others)
Sorry Stillwaters. I was just joking because I saw the kinds of responses those kinds of comments were getting. I mean, in some cases that is how it goes. But obviously not all cases. _________________ Carlos Gracie, Sr. → Carlson Gracie → Rodrigo Medeiros → Jeff Messina → Me
Scene: Construction site, inner city. Enter two contruction workers, seperated by about 20 yards.
Worker 1: (loud whistle to get Worker 2's attention)
Worker 2: (looks up to respond to Worker 1)
Lady across the street in tight miniskirt and tube top: Damn pigs! Everywhere I go, cat call, cat call, cat call! Just leave me alone!!!!
Scene: Internet Enter guy at keyboard
Guy: (uses examples that seldom happen in real life or are disproportionate in his experiences to prove "point" about society as a whole and justify bad behavior of others)
Sorry Stillwaters. I was just joking because I saw the kinds of responses those kinds of comments were getting. I mean, in some cases that is how it goes. But obviously not all cases.
I owe you an apology too...my response was a little snarky, but mostly directed at the sentiment of other posters.
I once dated a girl who liked to wear min skirts. I asked her why, once, and she said she just liked wearing them - it was nothing to do with the fact that she had an 'audience'.
Sometimes - I don't know how often - people do things for themselves, and would do them the same way if nobody else was there.
Sometimes people assume that every woman they see is dressed for their benefit.
It's also interesting to note that what qualifies as 'dressed provocatively' differs in place, and time: show a bit of ankle a century ago, and it was scandalous; show your hair in Saudi Arabia and you'll get the 'She was asking for attention!' response.
I'm not saying that women consciously do it. It's the "look" now. Fashion changes a lot. But if she is wearing something, that men are hardwired to respond to sexually in their minds, it doesn't matter why she's wearing it, the results will be the same. And any person with a few neurons will know that this is the kind of reaction that will bring upon.
I really think you're arguing about the vast minority of women. What about those women who don't dress provocatively (that's the majority), but guys think that "hey, I know she's got boobs under there somewhere, which I'm hardwired to enjoy and she deserves whatever I see fit to give because she's out in public in my line of sight"? Whose responsibility is that? The woman for "walking while female"?
I once dated a girl who liked to wear min skirts. I asked her why, once, and she said she just liked wearing them - it was nothing to do with the fact that she had an 'audience'.
Sometimes - I don't know how often - people do things for themselves, and would do them the same way if nobody else was there.
Sometimes people assume that every woman they see is dressed for their benefit.
It's also interesting to note that what qualifies as 'dressed provocatively' differs in place, and time: show a bit of ankle a century ago, and it was scandalous; show your hair in Saudi Arabia and you'll get the 'She was asking for attention!' response.
I'm not saying that women consciously do it. It's the "look" now. Fashion changes a lot. But if she is wearing something, that men are hardwired to respond to sexually in their minds, it doesn't matter why she's wearing it, the results will be the same. And any person with a few neurons will know that this is the kind of reaction that will bring upon.
I really think you're arguing about the vast minority of women. What about those women who don't dress provocatively (that's the majority), but guys think that "hey, I know she's got boobs under there somewhere, which I'm hardwired to enjoy and she deserves whatever I see fit to give because she's out in public in my line of sight"? Whose responsibility is that? The woman for "walking while female"?
And what is wrong with a guy coming up to you and saying hi? _________________ ]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]
kuangren wrote:
...every time a blue belt quits BJJ, Rickson Gracie kills a kitten!! You don't want any more kittens to die, DO YOU!?...
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. Hence the "hubris" in my login ID (which I often regret, but thought was clever at the time); the attempt to poke fun at myself is often misconstrued as an affirmation to (online) cockiness. Everyone on these forums that knows me in real life (I think there are 6 now) knows that I'm 
which is why I like fighting. No matter what you believe, it's always going to be definitive. Which brings me to another dile
