Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Sign In with Facebook

In this Discussion

Funniest Martial Arts MYTHS you have personally been told

jackjitsujackjitsu Posts: 19,023
edited August 2007 in Jiu Jitsu Discussion
Now that we know what really works, id like to hear about the stupidest stuff you have heard while in conversations with friends.

For example, at a party last year, someone introduced me to this dude because he realized we both took martial arts.

So I ask the guy, what do you train in? And he replies NINJITSU

It was all I could do not to crack a big wise ass smile and roll my eyes :rofl:

He goes on to tell me about this american ninja academy he is in and all the secret moves they learn. Man, I wanted to rip into him so bad but..... it wasnt the right situation :lol: I had to listen about his instructor, this guy that could tear your head off before you could blink, and all the typical hollywood crap. Poor guy got sucked into a cult. I bet his instructor is some 50 year old fat pale white dude with lots of fake certificates on the walls :roflcat:
«1

Comments

  • dirt mcgirtdirt mcgirt Posts: 1,490
    A situation like this is where someone like mat would come in handy. Have mat challenge the dude, but before he ruins the good name of BJJ, Jack will intervene and take the fight with the ninja himself. JK, mat :thumbsup:


    btw, I've got a funny picture of ninjitsu that I'm going to have to post when I get home. You should forward this to your new ninja friend, Jack.


    edit-- The greatest myth came from me, when I said BJJ was gay a couple years ago. I've had a change of heart ever since being introduced to Pride and HERO's though. Especially after seeing how effective it is first hand at the gym.
  • jackjitsujackjitsu Posts: 19,023
    Mat would own the fat ninja :lol:
    That would be like a 10 second RNC :mrgreen:
  • jackjitsujackjitsu Posts: 19,023
    I always love it when some soccer mom tells me about her "black belt" daughter than could take a full grown man out. Ummmm... how old is she, I ask? How long has she been training?

    Oh, she's only 14!!! She's so good she got her black belt in just 1 year, as she smiles at me with the ignorant glee only a mother is capable of :lol:

    I just want to swallow a shot gun blast when I hear stuff like this :ahh:
  • bma_matbma_mat Posts: 11,636
    Mmmmm, RNC ftw :D Under 10 seconds lol.

    Hm, let's see. Oh yea, I once heard that the best, best fighters were the ones that hit you with their fingers. That they could basically jab you with 2 fingers, tearing your muscles/ligaments apart. Oh, that got my to strike at a boxing bag with 2 fingers for like a week lol. It also semi broke (cracked the bone a bit) one of my fingers when using it on someone lol.
  • jiujitsunoobjiujitsunoob Posts: 3,261
    I have a friend I met over the net who lives in Ireland.

    He takes ninjitsu also; I after describing jiujitsu and telling him about some of the rolling that I had done he said you guys practice on each other? I said yea you don't? He said no what we learn is much too dangerous to practice on a real opponent :roll: .

    What I really like about jiujitsu is you KNOW this shit works because you use it in every class against a live struggling opponent. It's real, it hurts at times, and you just know from all that practical experience that it's useful.

    If your learning something and you have never had the chance to use on a live resisting and unpredictable opponent then how in the hell do you know if what your learning is effective?

    I got him to go to one of the recent UFC matches in Ireland and looked up some BJJ schools close to him for him to go and try it out. That was a couple of weeks ago, I need to talk to him this weekend to see if he has had the chance to audit a jiujitsu class.
  • bma_matbma_mat Posts: 11,636
    Thing is, if he never used it on smoeone who resists and is unpredictable, he won't be able to do much. You need to practice anything to get it good. Whenever I learn a submission off the internet, it takes me a good 5-6 seconds longer than it should to do it the first time. After the first 2-3 times though, it's sunk in.

    Practice Practice Practice.
  • Dismissing Ninjutsu without knowing about it puts you in the same category as those who dismiss BJJ without knowing what it can do. While Ninjutsu may not be strictly a martial art, there are certain martial arts elements associated with a legitimate history of Ninjutsu.
  • bma_matbma_mat Posts: 11,636
    Ninjitsu is a bunch of old people with black hoods!
  • jiujitsunoobjiujitsunoob Posts: 3,261
    Yes but even we practice dangerous and deadly moves in Jiujitsu we just know when to stop - now given there MAY be moves they can't practice against a live and unpredictable opponent but I would venture to day the vast majority of whatever they learn could be practiced as we practice. If you can't practice at all against an unpredictable opponent then I say it's mostly BS - from what my friend was saying they do kata's and no sparing.

    This does not take away from the legendary Ninja's of old but the example my friend gave seems like a McDojo type of thing.
  • jackjitsujackjitsu Posts: 19,023
    No it doesnt, because I actually know about ninjitsu. I know that a huge majority of the people in the US that claim to teach ninjitsu are full of crap. There isnt even a consensus on what real ninjitsu is, was, or who actually ninja's were. Its all a big grey area lost to history and blurred by hollywood and fat old guys looking to make a buck. This is very different than when someone tells you they take BJJ. Most BJJ schools are legit, and the odds are, they know some real stuff that really works. Worlds of difference.

    Go find me 10 random so called "ninja's" from 10 different states in the USA, and then do the same for BJJ guys. Go find 10 BJJ blue belts from 10 different states.
    Then have an MMA battle between them.

    Ive got a $100 that says the BJJ guys win 10/10 fights.



    Dismissing Ninjutsu without knowing about it puts you in the same category as those who dismiss BJJ without knowing what it can do. While Ninjutsu may not be strictly a martial art, there are certain martial arts elements associated with a legitimate history of Ninjutsu.
  • jiujitsukidjiujitsukid Posts: 170
    they had a guy that knew ninjitsu in one of the first ufc's and he got his ass kicked by a boxer in like 10 seconds :rofl:
  • jiujitsunoobjiujitsunoob Posts: 3,261
    The Ninjitsu guys will tell you he really didn't know Ninjitsu :rofl:
    Because a real Ninjitsu guy would be able to take on all of the UFC combatants that are going to fight at the same time.

    Hell just to make it a challenge the Ninjitsu guy will give them all swords just so he can show how he can disarm them all before kicking their asses.
  • dirt mcgirtdirt mcgirt Posts: 1,490
    Thats the image I wanted to post... Shows the ninjitsu guy on his knees, face full of blood with a look on his face thats says... "WTF happend?"

    "ninjitsu... save it for the movies"
  • bma_matbma_mat Posts: 11,636
    The Ninjitsu guys will tell you he really didn't know Ninjitsu :rofl:
    Because a real Ninjitsu guy would be able to take on all of the UFC combatants that are going to fight at the same time.

    Hell just to make it a challenge the Ninjitsu guy will give them all swords just so he can show how he can disarm them all before kicking their asses.
    HAHAHAA, that was good man.
  • jiujitsunoobjiujitsunoob Posts: 3,261
    Perhaps we should rename the thread to "Let's all bash Ninjitsu" HAHA

    Sorry I'll try to contain my scorn - I just watched some fat white guy demonstrating Ninjitsu on YouTube. The whole time I'm thinking yea right it works on your students because they are playing along.

    Kinda like all the Akido demonstrations I'v seen.

    I'v yet to see a real Akido person fight in a street fight or mma type fight and win.
  • MickerMicker Posts: 266
    Did he learn that no matter how many ninjas he is with, that they are only allowed to attack one at a time??

  • Kinda like all the Akido demonstrations I'v seen.

    I'v yet to see a real Akido person fight in a street fight or mma type fight and win.
    Woa, attacking ninjitsu is one thing, but Aikido?

    Aikido is partly based on Jujutsu, just as BJJ - only it focuses on standup (think of it as a cross between Judo and BJJ). A lot of the ideas are the same - centralization, not fighting strength with strength. The arm locks are very similar to BJJ. Obviously, no one martial art will make you a complete fighter - aikido and BJJ would actually make for a great combination.
  • jackjitsujackjitsu Posts: 19,023
    Of all the martial arts, Aikido has always given me the impression that it requires the most choreography to work :rofl:

    Even back when I was a TKD nut, our TKD club challenged the Aikido club in college. We held sparring sessions, with no head contact allowed. The Aikido guys just got demolished. They had no answer to someone who didnt go along with their little dance.

    Watch this akido guy, (with long girl hair), attempt to fight some karate guy
    I guess he expected the guy to walk toward him with an arm sticking way out like they do in class
    :owned:

  • jackjitsujackjitsu Posts: 19,023
    Speaking of MYTHS....
    watch this garbage for a good laugh :lol:

  • ZendingZending Posts: 934
    You know, to be honest, if you laid into any practitioner of a martial art and destroyed him with BJJ, he would be more heartbroken and angry rather than interested in learning BJJ.

    We put our heart and souls into BJJ, and they do the same for their martial art. Most of them are just too prideful to admit when their martial art is inneffective. It's a sad truth. I don't bother trying to argue with people or prove anyone wrong about their practice. I just do my thing, and if the time ever comes where I have the chance to prove it in a peaceful way, I will.
  • bma_matbma_mat Posts: 11,636
    I have gotten friends who swore in punching to practice BJJ with me.

    I just tell them to go all out on me with gloves on, and take them apart. Works every time.
  • Locke07Locke07 Posts: 2,780
    Honestly I agree BJJ is a great martial art. It's effective, but so is boxing? Many a time have we seen strikers laying out bjj guys. I don't know why people on this forum seem so hellbent on how much better BJJ is than any other martial art. Yes it works, but at the sime time there are people who practice martial arts for other reasons than beating each other up. Many of those katas you put on videos and laugh at are instructional expos, which I have seen many BJJ expos that look just as coreographed as those. I believe there was even one of the gracies.

    Realize that everyone puts effort into their martial art. I do agree there are scams and con artists, but have decency for many other martial artist. You cannot actually attack it until you have tried it yourself.
  • jiujitsunoobjiujitsunoob Posts: 3,261

    Kinda like all the Akido demonstrations I'v seen.

    I'v yet to see a real Akido person fight in a street fight or mma type fight and win.


    Woa, attacking ninjitsu is one thing, but Aikido?

    Aikido is partly based on Jujutsu, just as BJJ - only it focuses on standup (think of it as a cross between Judo and BJJ). A lot of the ideas are the same - centralization, not fighting strength with strength. The arm locks are very similar to BJJ. Obviously, no one martial art will make you a complete fighter - aikido and BJJ would actually make for a great combination.
    Like I was saying I have yet to see a "real" fight with Akido where the Akido guy wins. I could just be under educated but as jack was saying I wouldn't be sticking my arms out rushing anyone with such bad posture I would close like I do in my Muay Thai classes which is not sticking my arms straight out with my weight forward just screaming grab my arm and throw me to the ground.

    All the demonstrations I've seen are highly choreographed - looks good but how practical in a real fight?
  • jiujitsunoobjiujitsunoob Posts: 3,261
    Honestly I agree BJJ is a great martial art. It's effective, but so is boxing? Many a time have we seen strikers laying out bjj guys. I don't know why people on this forum seem so hellbent on how much better BJJ is than any other martial art.
    Because boxing alone is not enough to stop a BJJ guy as was demonstrated in the first 4 UFC's. A Pure fighter from most (was about to say any but Judo that would be too inclusive) martial arts would be unable to stop the fight from going to the ground and once it does the BJJ guy is going to win the vast majority of the time.
    Yes it works, but at the sime time there are people who practice martial arts for other reasons than beating each other up.
    Because it's a Martial as in a combative Art - if the combat part of your art is crap in a real situation then call what you do something other than a Martial Art. Yoga comes to mind My Muay Thai instructor swears by Yoga for the betterment of your mind and body.
    Many of those katas you put on videos and laugh at are instructional expos, which I have seen many BJJ expos that look just as coreographed as those. I believe there was even one of the gracies.
    Perhaps - I've seen instructional videos on YouTube but I also see lots and lots and lots of grappling tournaments. The Akido demos are chorigraphed and the TDK demo I went to at the local school about 18 months ago was totally non-combat.

    Just my observations.
  • jackjitsujackjitsu Posts: 19,023
    But no one is bashing boxing, because it works! Sure, a boxer would have a huge problem against a grappler, as proven many times, but no one puts boxing in the same league as Aikido. Boxing actually works. Boxing is practiced at full contact with resisting opponents. A Boxer will KTFO an average joe on the street wih ease. We all know this. Boxing gets props from me because ive seen it work, its proven.

    But Aikido? Man, ive goofed around with Aikdo guys before, and to me, it clearly falls into the McDojo league. You gotta admit, some so called "martial arts", emphasis on MARTIAL, are really not martial at all and a good debunking/bashing is well deserved in my opinion.

    It pisses me off that so many people are still being fooled today into paying money each month to learn a supposed "martial art" for self defense that will do nothing but make them over confident and get their ass kicked in a real fight. :x
    Honestly I agree BJJ is a great martial art. It's effective, but so is boxing? Many a time have we seen strikers laying out bjj guys. I don't know why people on this forum seem so hellbent on how much better BJJ is than any other martial art. Yes it works, but at the sime time there are people who practice martial arts for other reasons than beating each other up. Many of those katas you put on videos and laugh at are instructional expos, which I have seen many BJJ expos that look just as coreographed as those. I believe there was even one of the gracies.

    Realize that everyone puts effort into their martial art. I do agree there are scams and con artists, but have decency for many other martial artist. You cannot actually attack it until you have tried it yourself.
  • rowandraperrowandraper Posts: 630
    If I was that Aikido guy/girl with the long hair and some Karate guy did that to me .... (on the receiving end rather than studying their ineffective art) I'd take him down and mount him and see how he likes my friends GnP.

    The force he used was way too excessive for a demonstration. He could quite easily show why Aikido doesn't work. Chump.

    Also - my sister does Aikido (or used to) I'm going to drive her into submission to attending the RGA down in London. Hopefully she'll get something that works there.
  • jackjitsujackjitsu Posts: 19,023
    I actually thought the force of the kick was ok.

    He used a thrust kick meant to push someone back instead of really snapping it for damage. The reason the guy went flying back sooooo much was because his base was so terrible, and didnt react to the kick at all by jumping back a little and moving his base to avoid the energy.

    He's lucky he didnt use a kick with intent to damage like a muay thai body would have because he obviously had no idea what to do against a kick except absorb the full force :lol:
  • Guys, you really have to know what you're talking about.

    It is true that not all martial arts were created equal. Neither were men - but just because your brother weighs 50 pounds less than you doesn't mean he's not a man!

    Aikido is best against grabs and other control situations (standing) - such as those moves a bouncer would do on you. Against hand and arm strikes it has some effectiveness (you have to have really good speed to pull some of the aikido moves), and none against kicks. Yes, you heard it right - aikido has no defense against kicks as far as I'm aware. But anybody with any intelligence would just stay out of range of the kicks or dodge/block them ;p

    I see it as a good supplement to other martial arts, such as BJJ and TKD. However, alone it's purely a defense martial art, and not a combat sport.
  • jackjitsujackjitsu Posts: 19,023
    Im sure you can pull something effective from every martial art, but that doesnt mean you should waste your time on it. Ever hear of opportunity cost?

    For every hour you spend wasting on aikido, you could have been doing an hour of muay thai, or boxing, or BJJ, or Judo, or wrestling.... you know, stuff that works. These are arts where the vast majority of the moves work, instead of an extreme minority.

    Ive seen so many choreographed aikido demonstrations. Its seems like its the only thing they can do. Have you ever seen a video of aikdo practiced against a real opponent that looked anything like aikido???

    Its like that video of those two high level kung fu masters that got into a fight. Once the fight gets real, all their extravagent kung fu moves go out the window and they looked like two untrained kids wrestling on the playground, proving what a waste of time kung fu is.

    Life is too short to waste your time on stuff that is 95% BS.
  • rediskarediska Posts: 1,121
    Jack, aikido demonstrations are not choreographed. When you see someone thrown with an aikido technique and the audience applauds, the applause is for both the uke and the nage for performing their parts of the technique well. The word "choreographed" implies deception, while there isn't any present.
    You are not supposed to use aikido in a fight (except for the most intense, hard-core varitey), and the aikido practitioners know this. However...
    Even several months after I quit aikido, my feet were still so light, I was almost dancing as I walked. Hm, I wonder if that would come handy in a fight? Think boxing, avoiding your opponent's punches by constantly stepping out of his range. Then there are all the Ikkyo arm movements, due to which my shoulders are *still* pretty well developed and strong. And after you do a couple hundred Ikkyos, your elbows are going to become way more dangerous than the elbows of an average person, because it's just like doing an Ikkyo technique, you don't even have to think - bam! bam! BAM!
    That's just two examples and there are a lot more of similar indirect benefits, but the point is that you should stop bashing Aikido. True, it's not the martial art for someone who is serious about realistic fighting, because of its none-violent philosophy, among other things, but it does have some self-defense value and it's not worthless.
  • jackjitsujackjitsu Posts: 19,023
    You are not supposed to use aikido in a fight (except for the most intense, hard-core varitey), and the aikido practitioners know this.....
    True, it's not the martial art for someone who is serious about realistic fighting....
    See, this is what im talking about. The above statements and "Martial Art", do not gel. It fails the "martial" test. We should therefore call aikido "Dance Art" or something.
    but it does have some self-defense value and it's not worthless.
    Like I said before, the opportunity cost is too high to take a so called martial art where only a minority of techniques have an usefulness. If its not MOSTLY useful, then I think it needs to be called out. I too have wasted many years on uneffective martial arts, and I know it can be hard to let go, but id rather deal with reality. Id gladly trade in my decade of training in stuff like kung fu, karate and TKD for 2 years of muay thai!

    We could say Aikido is good for exercise, or its fun, but would I ever send someone to AIkido class to learn to defend themselves?!??! Hell no, complete waste of time, and even counter productive, giving the student a FALSE sense of security and over confidence which could get them into trouble.

    And I disagree, about the choreographed. Maybe choreographed is not exactly the right word. How about staged? Or using a "cooperative opponent"? In any case, take any of those Aikdo demo's and replace his opponent who slowly charges him with an arm outreached, with a 6 month BJJ white belt and what would happen?

    You would end up with an Aikdo guy on his back fully mounted wondering why his fancing little foot work failed to work.

    THATS the big problem I have with these Aikido "demo's". They show unrealistic techniques that ONLY WORK IN DEMO's :roll:

    Compare this to Rickson Gracie and Royler Gracie giving a demo at Pride. Obviously choreographed, but the big difference is, you see them using the exact same moves against live resisting opponents. They could nail you with all those moves day in and day out and in fact do this at their schools every day against resisting opponents.

    I dont think ive seen a single aikido practitioner pull off multiple aikido moves like you see in their choreographed demo's against an unwanting, resisting opoonent. Not once. That just stinks of pure MA mythology to me. The Aikido guys I sparred with surely couldnt do it.
  • Gotta agree with JJ, Aikido is one of the most unrealistic martial arts ive seen. I think your typical highscool scrapper would kill you if thats all you knew. A wrestler for sure. Im gonna do a poll
  • rediskarediska Posts: 1,121
    Lol, Jack, I'm not an Aikido BB, unfortunately, so I can't tell exactly how much a master of Aikido can do. However...
    Or using a "cooperative opponent"?
    Yeah, Aikido does require a compliant uke. But there is a reason you shouldn't try to resist some of the techniques. You wouldn't try to resist an armbar, if your opponent has got you tight and already started cranking, right? You tap, to avoid having your arm broken. Well, human wrists are pretty fragile, and unless you go along with some of the techniques you will have yours broken sooner or later.
    "In any case, take any of those Aikdo demo's and replace his opponent who slowly charges him with an arm outreached, with a 6 month BJJ white belt and what would happen?"
    Well, we already had a 6 month BJJ white belt tell us he beat Aikido 5-dans, so your question had been answered. Then again, that white belt already knew a ton of Aikido, so he probably didn't make any stupid mistakes. Jack, if you were to, say, try to unbalance the standing Aikido BB by grabbing at his kimono, you would basically be giving him your arm and the value of learning Aikido would immediatly dawn upon you. Nykios are some of the most effective techniques Aikido has, and they can really hurt. If applied at full force and with speed, I'm sure they can break a wrist quickly and without much effort.
  • my ju jitsu instructor is also an akido instructor. on day when i came by to pay my bill he was in the middle of an akido class. i waited untill he was done. once finished i ask him about this akido and its practical application.
    he stated " akido is an art, unless you dedicate almost a decade to it,their isno way it will ever be practical self defense. he said for self defense im in the right class. then i asked him what if i dedicated 10yrs to akido could i take a black belt in ju jitsu, he laughed and said" most likly no".he said a purple in ju jitsu could easily take an practicioner of akido with ten yrs experiance.
  • AtomicfrogAtomicfrog Posts: 95
    I love Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. I think it's the greatest MA out there and pound for pound, it's one of the most effective. Having said that though, there seems to be an arrogance in the community that other martial arts are not worthy of respect. I don't mean this as a blanket statement, not everyone behaves this way, but I see a lot of BJJ practitioners casting judgment on other arts. If someone challenges the effectiveness of BJJ then by all means, put them in their place, but a true professional doesn't need to go around thumping their chest to prove how superior they are. Actions speak volumes more than words.

    I disagree that a Martial Art is worthless if you can't kick beat someone up with it. People practice different styles for many more reasons than self defense. Discipline, fitness, self cultivation, character development, and self confidence are all valid reasons for practicing a martial art and I don't think it is our place to stand back and stare down our noses at others because they do not share our passion.
  • vanguardvanguard Posts: 743
    Oddly, I've always had a higher sense of value around Aikido than most of the other martial arts. I kind of put it near judo. We had a couple of Aikido guys in my school and they always have wrist cranks to add to moves that actually make them harder to deal with.
  • TallmarkTallmark Posts: 150
    You might want to check out "Beverly Hills Ninja" with the late Chris Farley. This will give you some insider info on this deadly cult that continues to exist. :mrgreen:
  • jackjitsujackjitsu Posts: 19,023

    I disagree that a Martial Art is worthless if you can't kick beat someone up with it. People practice different styles for many more reasons than self defense. Discipline, fitness, self cultivation, character development, and self confidence are all valid reasons for practicing a martial art and I don't think it is our place to stand back and stare down our noses at others because they do not share our passion.
    Thats fine, but it doesnt qualify as "martial" then. Seems like a form of false advertising to me. It's also irrelevant to me if they share my passion or not. This is not a "bjj is great, everything else sucks" attitude. This is simply a, im tired of unproven stuff being sold as *martial* arts. Like I said before, you wont catch me bashing judo, boxing, wrestling, sambo, muay thai, etc. Its not a BJJ attitude, its a show me the beef attitude. I have yet to see the beef with Aikido, it doesnt seem to deliver what it promises.
  • AtomicfrogAtomicfrog Posts: 95


    Thats fine, but it doesnt qualify as "martial" then. Seems like a form of false advertising to me. It's also irrelevant to me if they share my passion or not. This is not a "bjj is great, everything else sucks" attitude. This is simply a, im tired of unproven stuff being sold as *martial* arts. Like I said before, you wont catch me bashing judo, boxing, wrestling, sambo, muay thai, etc. Its not a BJJ attitude, its a show me the beef attitude. I have yet to see the beef with Aikido, it doesnt seem to deliver what it promises.
    What exactly does Akido promse then? According to Wikipedia, Aikido is described as follows.
    Aikido (合気道, aikidō?), translated as "the way of harmonious spirit", is a Japanese martial art developed by Morihei Ueshiba as a synthesis of his martial studies, philosophy, and religious beliefs. Ueshiba's goal was to create an art practitioners could use to defend themselves without injuring their attacker.

    Aikido emphasizes joining with an attack and redirecting the attacker's energy, as opposed to meeting force with force, and consists primarily of body throws and joint-locking techniques. In addition to physical fitness and technique, mental training, controlled relaxation, and development of "spirit" (ki) are emphasized in aikido training.
    I certainly don't know enough about Aikido or care enough about it to get into a lengthy defense. My point was more towards the general arrogance that some BJJ practitioners seem to have towards other martial arts. And if I were to judge BJJ only on combat effectiveness, I would say it is one of the most effective. However, I still feel strongly that the Martial Arts are not just for self defense. In the case of Aikido, it probably doesn't deliver if you only expect to be able to throw armies of attackers to the mat. But many other benefits can be achieved just the same.

    To be fair, after watching some of the Gracie videos showing them trouncing other martial artists, one might be led to believe that they could do the same and overlook the fact that the guys in the video are the elite top of the food chain in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.
  • jackjitsujackjitsu Posts: 19,023
    From your quote:
    Ueshiba's goal was to create an art practitioners could use to defend themselves without injuring their attacker.
    I dont think it delivers on its promise. I think if your typical kid who takes aikido got into an after school fight with your typical aggressive, wild throwing, bully, he would get killed.

    I still dont understand why people keep bringing up the examples of taking a martial art for other reasons.
    But many other benefits can be achieved just the same.
    I agree there could be other benefits, but like I said, I dont have a problem with that, my issue is with the term "martial". I just dont think it qualifies, IMO. Its definitely art. Its visually appealing, you may be able to extract a few things from it, but over all, its your typical TMA that got discredited after MMA was born.

    I dont think we've wever seen a pro fighter list Aikido as one of his core styles and I doubt we ever will. There is a reason for this.
  • herndogherndog Posts: 142
    Akido rules! :rofl: j/k. Akido sucks imo. I rolled with an Akido BB who was 50 lbs heavier and needless to say, he wished he had spent all of his time training in Akido in something more useful, like wrestling or hey what about this, BJJ. :)

    I agree with you jack, to me it just seems to staged and I see it more of a performance art type of thing than a martial arts.
  • Locke07Locke07 Posts: 2,780
    I agree Akido is not combat worthy. However, it seems that the BJJ community, including this forum, seems to think that they are far superior than any other martial art out there. I know BJJ works, its amazing for real life self defense if practiced that way. Anyone on here in gi only will have a reality check to face when they get in a fight with boxing. I won't say they are going to lose, but they will have problems they have never encountered before.

    Even BJJ barrows from other martial arts. How do most people take people down in BJJ competitions you either borrow from wrestling in a double leg or use judo for throws. I can see how a BJJ might get a shocker in a fight when they go up against a person with wrestling knowledge and can't take them down and it becomes a boxing match then what?


    I am told all the time that BJJ proved itself as the best pure combative art out there in the first 4 UFC's well, not too many ground experts other than the gracies entered that competition. I agree that BJJ is effective, no one is denying that, but it seems that a large majority of BJJ practitioners have their noses in the air into any other martial art. I can think of one post where the usefulness of Krav was questioned because there are some things you can't practice in full contact. I think anyone who took a week worth of krav could not tell me that it's not effective.

    Above all else most of us on these forums are martial artist. Have some respect for the guy next to you.
  • jackjitsujackjitsu Posts: 19,023

    I am told all the time that BJJ proved itself as the best pure combative art out there in the first 4 UFC's well, not too many ground experts other than the gracies entered that competition.
    Lets see.... Royce beat...

    Ken Shamrock - ground fighter - shooto fighter - 60lb weight advantage
    Remco Pardoel - ground fighter - judo - 76lb weight advantage
    Dan Severn - ground fighter - wrestling -75lb weight advantage

    Lets give Royce some credit here. Ken was a fricken athletic super athlete and the other guys made him look like a skinny kid.

    Above all else most of us on these forums are martial artist. Have some respect for the guy next to you.
    Respect should be earned. Im happy for the TMA myth debunking. Been a long time coming.
  • vanguardvanguard Posts: 743
    Lets give Royce some credit here. Ken was a fricken athletic super athlete and the other guys made him look like a skinny kid.
    Ken lost 6 of his last 7 fights and it's caused people to think that he sucked. The truth is that he was the man at one point. He beat Bas Rutten twice, which is pretty impressive.
  • jackjitsujackjitsu Posts: 19,023
    Yeah, who here has beaten Bas twice, or thinks they could??? Raise you hands!

    *cricket sounds*

    :lol:
  • rediskarediska Posts: 1,121
    Ten years from now, when he is in his fifties and I'm twenty nine I'll take him on! :lol: :lol: :lol:
  • Locke07Locke07 Posts: 2,780
    There are still some speculation to those who were allowed into the UFC. Secondly I still feel as though many people have an air of snobishness about BJJ. I think it doesn't give the martial art credit, just as a lot of people find the myth that BJJ focuses all on guard annoying, I don't want it to become an art with an elitest attitude.

    I have explained how even BJJ uses moves from other martial arts. As I have said we are all together. Even those who practice TKD in my opinion have a valuable martial art to defend themselves. The "McDojo" attitude is result of greed and the people that involve themselves into the art and sport, not the teachings or technique.
  • ZendingZending Posts: 934
    I dunno, I've fought boxers, Muay Thai boxers, TKD practitioners with BJJ, never seemed to really have a problem. The MT guys were probably the most dangerous, but BJJ has never done me wrong. You only have to change up your game plan amd take-down plans a little bit. I wouldn't say I have my nose in the air to other martial arts, as I use them in my overall arsenal as well. However, I think that BJJ is probably the, hands down, most effective over-all art to practice out there. But at the same time, I don't think it's the ONLY art one should practice out there either. Each martial art has something to offer to a different crowd. It's all personal preference really. However, I wouldn't reccomend bring an art like Aikido or Tai Chi into the MMA arena. Otherwise it's gonna be a real short career.
  • jackjitsujackjitsu Posts: 19,023
    Ever meet some hard core Korean TKD guys?

    Would you say they have a snobish aura about them because they swear TKD is the best MA around?

    Or would you call it PRIDE?
    There are still some speculation to those who were allowed into the UFC. Secondly I still feel as though many people have an air of snobishness about BJJ. I think it doesn't give the martial art credit, just as a lot of people find the myth that BJJ focuses all on guard annoying, I don't want it to become an art with an elitest attitude.

    I have explained how even BJJ uses moves from other martial arts. As I have said we are all together. Even those who practice TKD in my opinion have a valuable martial art to defend themselves. The "McDojo" attitude is result of greed and the people that involve themselves into the art and sport, not the teachings or technique.
  • Locke07Locke07 Posts: 2,780
    I am saying there is a difference between pride and being disrespectful.
  • rediskarediska Posts: 1,121
    Come on, Jack. You can say that aikido is ineffective for self-defense and MMA instead of calling it BS or a waste of time and everyone will be happy. :) People will think more highly of you as well because you are respectful. Ever notice how the humble and respectful people get a ton of respect and have everyone thinking they are good at what they do?
  • Locke07Locke07 Posts: 2,780
    When has martial arts been only about the ability to beat someone up? I believe that since it's half of the term, art should be emphasized as well. A perfect example of this. Kendo. No one in here can say Kendo s practical for self defense, but I cannot think of how anyone in here can not think of it as a martial art.
    Just because it is not the most effective doesn't remove the years of dedication, learning and commitment to a core philosophy that all martial Arts have.
  • aiseopaiseop Posts: 3,349
    Locke is on point when he emphasizes the notion that martial arts is not just about being able to beat up someone. I remember when I first started taking Judo ("the gentle way") the instructor told us of the ideal Judo in a confrontation: saying the right thing to diffuse the situation and both of you walking away. Part of the experience in taking BJJ for me has been to let go of your inflated sense of ego or pride. Personally, I don't plan on using this in real life unless I am attacked first. There are legal ramifications involved if you escalate a confrontation, plus, you could seriously injure someone. The thought of breaking someone's arm because he cut me off in traffic or stepped on my new Adidas is really only a fantasy, and if enacted, it is irresponsible to the philosophy of "the gentle art" (jiu-jitsu).
  • jackjitsujackjitsu Posts: 19,023
    edited July 2007
    Come on, Jack. You can say that aikido is ineffective for self-defense and MMA instead of calling it BS or a waste of time
    But thats pretty much what I mean when I say its BS or a waste of time.
    Its simply doesnt qualify as "martial" for me, so I give it the BS stamp.

    Like I said, respect needs to be earned. If a MARTIAL Art is not martial enough, then it doesnt earn my respect. Unlike some really PC people, I dont think everything gets respect by default. I took years of kung fu, and I think its BS too for the same reason. It doesnt work. We learned some really intricate dances, they call forms, but it would give me virtually no edge over someone in a fight.

    and everyone will be happy. :) People will think more highly of you as well because you are respectful. Ever notice how the humble and respectful people get a ton of respect and have everyone thinking they are good at what they do?
    When hard nosed news reporters debunk charlatans who are selling some BS product, do we run around complaining they are not being respectful enough?

    I dont see this as anything different. When certain arts, use the term MARTIAL, yet they dont teach anything that is actually effective, then I dont have a problem with people debunking them.

    People spend a lot of money on certain martial arts hoping to learn to defend themselves. They are instilled with a sense of false confidence that could get them in trouble. As far as im concerned, they are being RIPPED OFF and lied to.
    I personally feel ripped off for the years I wasted in certain arts. (Yeah arts, not martial arts). Thousands of dollars spent, thousands of hours of hard work for something that would just get my but kicked against and aggressive bully.

    Would it be disrespectful of me to tell some soccer mom her 8 year old girl wearing the $3000 black belt couldnt hurt a flee??? I think not. If the truth hurts, well too bad. I call it like I see it. Ive sparred with Aikido guys before and it clearly falls into my "not martial basket".
  • vanguardvanguard Posts: 743
    Well said, I gave you the triple thumbs up. Now somebody sink me so I can reach my goal of being the lowest rated posted ever. :)
  • jackjitsujackjitsu Posts: 19,023
    When has martial arts been only about the ability to beat someone up?
    That is not what "martial" means. Martial means warlike.

    I believe that since it's half of the term, art should be emphasized as well.
    The term "martial art" does not mean "martial AND art". The word "martial" is an adjective for the word "art". So it means the ART itself is martial, splitting them up doesnt make sense. The adjective is there to modify the noun, it cant stand separately or they wouldnt have used it.
    A perfect example of this. Kendo. No one in here can say Kendo is practical for self defense,
    Kendo is practiced at full force with padding and will develop real sword skills, and its definitely martial. I cant call Kendo BS, because it delivers with realistic technique, and it definitely qualifies as a "martial art". Maybe its not practical for self defense because we dont carry swords around, but thats not my beef with Aikido. My beef with aikido is that its more of a dance art than a martial art. Its not realistically practiced and doesnt deliver.
  • jackjitsujackjitsu Posts: 19,023
    Is anyone gonna claim we should respect this? :lol:

  • AtomicfrogAtomicfrog Posts: 95
    Are we ever going to stop beating this?


    image
  • jackjitsujackjitsu Posts: 19,023
    That horse is not "pulpy" enough yet, :lol:
  • rediskarediska Posts: 1,121
    Jack, just so you know - at the place where I was taking aikido, they were offering some kind of swordsmanship training too. It was all in one package, no need to pay additional money for it. Also, it is often said that Aikido was born as a self-defense art against swordsmen - and we certainly practiced quite a few anti-swordsman techniques in class. All those attacks that give away the wrist - they are supposed to simulate sword or knife strikes.
  • EotherEother Posts: 1,777
    Is anyone gonna claim we should respect this? :lol:

    That was the gayest thing I've ever seen. He refused to do the no-touch thing because she "might get hurt". How gay.
  • rediskarediska Posts: 1,121
    Oh. My. Fucking. Non. Existent. Never. Believed. In. God.

    :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

    *censored*

    Alright, that was my first reaction. The thing I'd suspect is at work here would be hypnosys. Self persuasion. There are weak people who are easily scared, pacifists who were probably bullied a lot in their life, who don't know shit about martial arts, and who can be convinced that they are about to be really hurt, so of course they are reacting. If you put a gun to someone's head and pull the trigger, then in case the gun jams, the victim's heart rate will shoot way up, even though no damage has been inflicted. As for the falling - that's their knees giving out, because they are too scared to think of keeping their balance, although I can't explain why they fall so dramatically, it should have been more of a downwards collapse, not a backfall.

    Pretty much the same thing with all the other techniques. His students are scared, so they react the way they think they the technique will make them react. What else... Despite all the self-persuasion, there are probably some effective pressure point techniques mixed up in there, even if this guy doesn't teach them.

    All that said, instead of saying the guy is full of shit, I kinda feel sorry for him - he's obviously had a tough childhood in his neighberhood, been picked on a lot, so I'd teach him some BJJ.
  • vanguardvanguard Posts: 743
    Here's a hint. If everybody in your class looks like they have spent thousands of hours playing Dungeons and Dragons then you're most likely in a McDojo. :D
  • jackjitsujackjitsu Posts: 19,023
    Here's a hint. If everybody in your class looks like they have spent thousands of hours playing Dungeons and Dragons then you're most likely in a McDojo. :D
    OH OH, this gives me an idea...... Watch for the new thread :lol:
  • aiseopaiseop Posts: 3,349
    Not to belabor the thread, but when I was in my teens, I went to a place that taught Ninjitsu, and I vividly remember the instructor telling my parents and I in the sales pitch that if I train hard and for many years that some of the mystical aspects of the Martial Art would open up to me, like becoming invisible for short bursts of time. I signed up for TKD right after this. Even that young my olfactory senses were developed enough to pick up the scent of b.s.
  • vanguardvanguard Posts: 743
    I was just thinking of another general idea not directly related to traditional martial arts. It's the idea that fighting is a skill that everybody is born with. I remember a conversation from last winter. My wife and I were out with another couple and somewhere along the line the husband said something about beating me up, slapping me, or whatever. He was goofing around and I just smiled.

    My wife replied with something like, "That would probably be a mistake." My wife is right, I've been training for a few years now and I was in better shape than the 5'9" guy who could stand to lose 30 lbs who brought up the subject.

    His wife said, "I don't know, I wouldn't want to mess with him when he gets really mad."

    Again, I just smiled and said something along the lines of, "Yeah, I wouldn't do that." Internally I was thinking, "Unless I felt like pwning this newb."

    So that brings me to the idea that everybody thinks they can fight. Why is it that a normal guy that's had maybe 20 minutes of fighting experience and no training in his entire lifetime thinks he can fight?

    * I'm a relatively smart guy but I don't walk around thinking I can beat a regular player who studies the game in chess.

    * I have a decent ear for music but I've never thought I'd be able to simple walk up to a piano and outplay somebody that works at it all the time.

    * I'm a decent athlete but I'm sure that I couldn't beat anybody that knows what they are doing in the pole vault.

    Yet somehow people think they can win fights against a guy that does it 6 hours a weeks for 2 years. The same guy that's read several books, watches fights all the time and thinks about what went well, what he would do differently, etc. So my myth is that fighting is something that everybody knows how to do. Trust me, if you've never had trained in any of the legit martial arts (boxing, MT, wrestling, BJJ, etc.) you look just like somebody that's goofing around on guitar the first day they pick it up.
  • jackjitsujackjitsu Posts: 19,023
    The reason? "Manly pride"
  • bma_matbma_mat Posts: 11,636
    Although really, experience in fighting is very important also. Someone who has been training BJJ for a year, 3 times a week, and someone who has had fist fights for a year, 3 times a week, I think the guy with the fist fighting has a chance of winning (as long as the BJJ guy has never done striking martial arts).

    It's because if he's never competed, just taken class, he will get suprised when something like a punch comes at him.

    You have to give credit to street fighting. Although sure, you give that same BJJ guy a month of preperation to fighting someone who throws punches, and it's a whole different story.

    What you guys think?
  • vanguardvanguard Posts: 743
    Although really, experience in fighting is very important also. Someone who has been training BJJ for a year, 3 times a week, and someone who has had fist fights for a year, 3 times a week, I think the guy with the fist fighting has a chance of winning (as long as the BJJ guy has never done striking martial arts).

    It's because if he's never competed, just taken class, he will get suprised when something like a punch comes at him.

    You have to give credit to street fighting. Although sure, you give that same BJJ guy a month of preperation to fighting someone who throws punches, and it's a whole different story.

    What you guys think?
    I think you're on to something. You don't know if the BJJ guy has the courage to push through getting hit a few times. However, assuming he does I think BJJ beats street fighting. The whole concept of taking him down, getting control, and using subs that your opponent doesn't know is very effective. Royce made a career out of it and 3 years of BJJ is more than enough to do it to a random street fighter.

    BTW, it's probably a poor assumption that everybody in a BJJ class has never been in a real fight. Guys attracted to grappling arts are not typically guys that are afraid to mix it up. Most of my class are cops, prison guards, army guys, or college kids. All of them seem ready to throw down if some random stranger pushes their limits.
  • bma_matbma_mat Posts: 11,636
    Oh no, im not assuming that at all. I'm just saying, that experience is underrated. Just from reading some posts, about people who think they can fight but had no formal training in any martial art. Experience is fighting is underrated.

    Someone who's been fighting for a year, 3 times a week, you can bet your ass he will be very good at kicking your balls, biting you, punching you, headbutting you, etc. And if you've had no training to prepare for a MMA/streetfight, you will not be ready with only formal training for someone like that.
  • jackjitsujackjitsu Posts: 19,023
    I would also add, BJJ in general increases your "toughness" 10X, so even if the guy has never done any striking at all, and being hit HARD the first time can be a bit bewildering, its gonna have a lot less effect on someone who has already been roughed up as much as a BJJ guy has.

    Ive taken striking arts, I know what its like to get your bell rung, but I also know, that every time ive gotten into a fight, with the adrenaline pumping, I barely feel the punches at all.

    Watch the untrained street fight vids where guys are throwing like crazy and getting hit like crazy, and they barely flinch. Well, at least until someone lands the KO shot :rofl:

    I almost think a BJJ guy with zero striking experience would have MORE problems in a mma style match with a friend trying to knock his head off, because he doesnt have the protection of the adrenaline pump and the punches will HURT :lol:
  • bma_matbma_mat Posts: 11,636
    I almost think a BJJ guy with zero striking experience would have MORE problems in a mma style match with a friend trying to knock his head off, because he doesnt have the protection of the adrenaline pump and the punches will HURT
    While this might be a valid point, I have to disagree. Problem with that adrenaline rush it that, you can't focus soooo much on technique, as you would in a MMA match. When adrenaline hits, and you've never been hit before, you, for lack of a better word, panic. And because of this, your technique will suffer, not alot, but enough to effect your fight. You will tend to try to adapt, instead of going with what you know works for you.
  • jackjitsujackjitsu Posts: 19,023

    While this might be a valid point, I have to disagree. Problem with that adrenaline rush it that, you can't focus soooo much on technique, as you would in a MMA match. When adrenaline hits, and you've never been hit before, you, for lack of a better word, panic. And because of this, your technique will suffer, not alot, but enough to effect your fight. You will tend to try to adapt, instead of going with what you know works for you.
    Your opponent has the same issue though, so you are even in this sense.

    Also, when you panic, you tend to use what you have drilled a billion times.
    I got into a fight in high school while I was on the wrestling team, and this kid just clocked me right on the chin. Good solid cheap shot. But the adrenaline was already going, and for whatever reason, it didnt knock me out and I didnt feel a thing. I didnt even think, I reacted, and I instantly took him down and put him in a cradle :lol: Pure instinct based on my training.

    I think at this point, if I got into a fight, I would instinctually break out a can of BJJ whoop ass :lol:
  • bma_matbma_mat Posts: 11,636
    A year of BJJ, and no training for a real fight and to block strikes, is not enough in my oppinion. Sure, a purple with around 7 years, against a 7 year street fighter, would be rediculous to say the purple would lose, but with 1 year, you're still a white belt, and while 1 year is a long time, it's not enough in my oppinion.
  • jackjitsujackjitsu Posts: 19,023
    A year of BJJ, and no training for a real fight and to block strikes, is not enough in my oppinion. Sure, a purple with around 7 years, against a 7 year street fighter, would be rediculous to say the purple would lose, but with 1 year, you're still a white belt, and while 1 year is a long time, it's not enough in my oppinion.
    I think you are disregarding the typical striker versus grappler history.

    A year of BJJ can get you your blue belt, and is plenty enough to take down a striker and turn him into a white belt on the ground where you would kill him.

    At the one year mark, im certain I could have gone back to my old TKD, Karate, Kung Fu, Kickboxing schools and owned my old friends on the ground. They dont even know how to stop a sloppy double leg.
  • bma_matbma_mat Posts: 11,636
    TKD, Karate, Kung Fu
    You can never compare those to 3 times a week streetfighting.
  • jackjitsujackjitsu Posts: 19,023
    TKD, Karate, Kung Fu


    You can never compare those to 3 times a week streetfighting.
    You left out the kick boxing, thats where I got most of my full contact from :wink:
    TKD did give me some good kicks though, but very unrealistic.

    My point is, even a year of typical, wild throwing, street fighting may never teach you any ground game at all, since people typically dont try to take each other down. Without a takedown defense, even a BJJ white belt will get you down, and then you could be in big trouble.
  • bma_matbma_mat Posts: 11,636
    TKD did give me some good kicks though, but very unrealistic.
    I've fought TKD (although never count it, cause they were like 15 pounds lighter).

    They have flashy kicks, but you can catch their kicks, and they don't do any real damage. Don't even bruise.
  • jackjitsujackjitsu Posts: 19,023
    Yeah, they are into "point sparring" too much. But I will kick the living shit out of you :lol: I took my TKD and added tons of power to it working on a heavy bag and then later in kickboxing practice with more realistic contact.
  • bma_matbma_mat Posts: 11,636
    I'm never worried about kicks. I close the distance way way too fast to be worried about it.
  • jackjitsujackjitsu Posts: 19,023
    I'm never worried about kicks. I close the distance way way too fast to be worried about it.
    Muay Thai leg kicks versus Boxing
  • bma_matbma_mat Posts: 11,636
    Lol, you can't compare TKD kicks to Muay Thai kicks. TKD kids try going for those high stupid kicks, thinking they one hit knock you out. Muay Thai destroys your base with those low kicks. And ofcourse, it has it's nice arsenal of high kicks that have KO power, like we've seen from crocop.
  • jackjitsujackjitsu Posts: 19,023
    Lol, you can't compare TKD kicks to Muay Thai kicks. TKD kids try going for those high stupid kicks, thinking they one hit knock you out. Muay Thai destroys your base with those low kicks. And ofcourse, it has it's nice arsenal of high kicks that have KO power, like we've seen from crocop.

    But you said
    I'm never worried about kicks.
    You didnt say: "I'm never worried about TKD kicks" :wink:

    Anyway... thats why I modified my kicks. Modeled them after MT kicks instead.
    I cant imagine taking a full shot to the ribs from someone with a strong round house :shock:
  • bma_matbma_mat Posts: 11,636
    You didnt say: "I'm never worried about TKD kicks"
    It was a direct reply to you, and YOU were talking about TKD kicks.
    Yeah, they are into "point sparring" too much. But I will kick the living s*** out of you I took my TKD and added tons of power to it working on a heavy bag and then later in kickboxing practice with more realistic contact.
    And to reafirm my reason for thinking you were talking about TKD, the post that you had replied to was about TKD.
    I've fought TKD (although never count it, cause they were like 15 pounds lighter).

    They have flashy kicks, but you can catch their kicks, and they don't do any real damage. Don't even
    So as you can see, I was refering to TKD, not kicks in general. I've never fought a MT guy, and IF or WHEN I do, You can bet your a ss that i'll be carefull closing that distance, watching for his knees, kicks, etc.
  • Locke07Locke07 Posts: 2,780
    We also now lose context to what Martial Arts where practiced in. We think that just because both people have a black belt they are even, but honestly we know that in TKD you can get a black belt in 2 years at some schools, and you would just be getting your blue belt in BJJ.

    Another key point is that Martial Arts in all forms have lost the original martial ideas behind them. A weapon is a great equalizer. You could be a black belt in every martial art and loose to a gun or a sword/knife. I think Akdio might not be as effective as BJJ, however if you examine bjj in all aspects of the word martial I feel that it would come up short on several areas. Against multiple oponents BJJ is a horrible martial art. It is insane to go to the ground vs more than 1 person or you risk the chance of being horribly injured. That was one of the very key area where a martial art was invented for.

    The use of weapons are another issue for BJJ. A knife is a very close quarter weapon that makes a takedown a suicidal tactic. Striking arts are more effective in dealing with those situaitons. So that raises the question what was Akido used for.


    Usheiba was a buddhist making a strict vowel to do no harm (anhism). So under that premise could any of you make a martial art that could defend yourself without doing harm to your oponent?

    I don't think martial art is an adequate word for BJJ because it has become a martial sport. Look at the premise and focus of it before you judge. Nothing is perfect, and all offer something in both aspects art and martial ability.

    Locke
  • jackjitsujackjitsu Posts: 19,023
    I always find it interesting when people point out that BJJ isnt good against multiple opponents, when NO ART is good against multiple opponents.
    Multiple opponents, who are aggressive, and attack together will take out any average trained joe.

    No weaponless art is good against a knife either, no matter what they claim. Ive never seen evidence that any weaponless MA could handle a real knife attack. You may be able to find exceptions to the rule, but 9/10 times someones gonna get knifed no matter what they study.

    Give me a magic marker, and put me up against anyone that claims their art will work against a knife and I will show you a guy with magic marker lines all over him that represent lethal cuts after were done sparring. :lol:
  • bma_matbma_mat Posts: 11,636
    I always find it interesting when people point out that BJJ isnt good against multiple opponents, when NO ART is good against multiple opponents.
    Multiple opponents, who are aggressive, and attack together will take out any average trained joe.
    I have to disagree with you, and would like to add another point. First of all, when facing multiple opponents, BJJ is nowhere as good as a striking martial art. Why is this? It's because when facing multiple opponents, your main goal is to keep a good distance. You don't want to close the distance. BJJ is the opposite. While you can strike and keep them away, in BJJ, you're commiting suicide by letting them get close.

    Other than this, I totally agree. No martial art can teach you to effectively win a fight against multiple opponents. Obviously someone who has trained in Martial arts all his life could take on 2-3 untrained opponents. I mean, Imagine Fedor being attacked by 3 highschool punks. They would get murdered, but, multiple opponents is generally something you don't look forward to confronting.
  • Locke07Locke07 Posts: 2,780
    I always find it interesting when people point out that BJJ isnt good against multiple opponents, when NO ART is good against multiple opponents.
    Multiple opponents, who are aggressive, and attack together will take out any average trained joe.

    No weaponless art is good against a knife either, no matter what they claim. Ive never seen evidence that any weaponless MA could handle a real knife attack. You may be able to find exceptions to the rule, but 9/10 times someones gonna get knifed no matter what they study.

    Give me a magic marker, and put me up against anyone that claims their art will work against a knife and I will show you a guy with magic marker lines all over him that represent lethal cuts after were done sparring. :lol:
    I agree, both of those situations the odds are not in your favor, but we must realize that those are the odds that most of the ancient martial arts have been forged with. Most of the users were fudeal cast members of society that were strictly forced not to have weapons. As such they developed unarmed ways of fighting.

    I would even take your challenge to the faux knife, I have seen that many times it is possible to minimize damage taken from close combat fights with weapons knowing the proper techniques. Look at Krav Maga, look at The United States Marine Corps. martial arts training, which uitilizes both BJJ positions/philosophy along with a specific field in weapon combat vs un-armed combat.

    It might not make you invincible, but just like BJJ it evens the odds. I still fill that a blue belt can loose to a striker on the street, especially a size difference, physical difference and exp. difference. It's one thing to practice moves on a partner that is somewhat cooperative, not against a person who has faced the anger and stress that comes from a real fight or flight situation.
  • bma_matbma_mat Posts: 11,636
    It's one thing to practice moves on a partner that is somewhat cooperative, not against a person who has faced the anger and stress that comes from a real fight or flight situation.
    Agreed.

    And yes, I've done the magic marker with friends, using techniques from a self defence video of rorion gracie. I stop the knife around every 3-4/10 times. It was actually like 8/10 until they realised they can't use standar knife swings (overhead, underhand, and side), so they started getting creative lol, then the techniques went to hell. But goes to show, u go up with someone who has no experience with a knife, and if you're lucky, you have a nice leather jacket, and your chances are pretty good.
  • jackjitsujackjitsu Posts: 19,023

    I have to disagree with you, and would like to add another point. First of all, when facing multiple opponents, BJJ is nowhere as good as a striking martial art. Why is this? It's because when facing multiple opponents, your main goal is to keep a good distance. You don't want to close the distance. BJJ is the opposite. While you can strike and keep them away, in BJJ, you're commiting suicide by letting them get close.
    I have to disagree. How can you say "nowhere as good" if striking arts completely fail against multiple opponents too? You are making the assumption that a BJJ guy would try to take one of the guys down. Against multiple opponents, my #1 goal is to escape, not actually try to fight the dudes.

    Now, knowing how typical street fights ago, with guys grabbing you, head locking you to the ground, and people falling over, the #1 thing you are trying to avoid is ending up being on the ground with 3 dudes soccer kicking your head and ribs, which begs the question.

    Who has the BEST chance of preventing a takedown long enough to get the hell out of there? A grapple, or a striker with no takedown defense?
    Other than this, I totally agree. No martial art can teach you to effectively win a fight against multiple opponents. Obviously someone who has trained in Martial arts all his life could take on 2-3 untrained opponents. I mean, Imagine Fedor being attacked by 3 highschool punks. They would get murdered, but, multiple opponents is generally something you don't look forward to confronting.
    Well, 3 highscool punks are probably gonna be about half of Fedor's size each :lol: Now lets take 3 highschool football players, and give them a simple gameplan to take on Fedor, and even Fedor could have some serious problems with a simple coordinated attack where they all tackle him at once from 3 angles. Fedor's going down, and with three guys kicking and punching at once, even he could have serious issues.

    Now if they try to attack him like in kung-fu flicks, where there is an unwritten law that everyone precisely attacks one at a time...well :lol: :lol: :lol:
  • Locke07Locke07 Posts: 2,780
    Well, it has been said far to often that BJJ doesn't stress the takedown as much as wrestling or judo, so I guess BJJ fails there too? Maybe it is inadequate as a martial art. Striking is better equpiment to have when going against multiple oponents; its a simple concept, it keeps distance. No one can "Grapple" with 3 v 1 in a clinch, so keeping distance with kicks and strikes and narrowing the avenue of attackers is your best bet. Striking wins.

    I think all martial arts add something to the individual. Even if nothing more than clairty, which can be one of the most valuable asset in a real fight. I don't think you should judge things by others creeds. If so, then nothing would be considered good. Make sure they hold up on their claim, which I think most arts if adequatley practiced.
  • jackjitsujackjitsu Posts: 19,023
    Well, it has been said far to often that BJJ doesn't stress the takedown as much as wrestling or judo, so I guess BJJ fails there too? Maybe it is inadequate as a martial art.
    Come on , now youre just exaggerating :lol: BJJ's takedowns and takedown defense are fine, they are just not at the level of a say a judoka's.

    A BJJ guy will still take an untrained guy down with a hip throw with little problem, just not as good as a judoka. A judoka, will still submit the crap out of an untrained guy, just not as well as a BJJ guy. Doesnt mean they have failed in any way, its just not their focus/specialty, but they do in fact train it.

    Lets also not pretend that a BJJ guy isnt capable of throwing any kind of punch at all, by some unwritten rule. The BJJ guy will strike too, just not nearly effectively as a striker who specializes in it.

    Striking is better equpiment to have when going against multiple oponents; its a simple concept, it keeps distance. No one can "Grapple" with 3 v 1 in a clinch, so keeping distance with kicks and strikes and narrowing the avenue of attackers is your best bet. Striking wins.
    Again, since 90% of fights go to the ground (I did my own independent research on this by the way), I have to disagree.
    If 90% go to the ground with ***ONE*** opponent, the striker is almost certainly going to the ground with 3, and then he's dead. Same with everyone.

    The striking strategy also hinges on pure luck. You have to be lucky enough to go against three guys that simply dont realize they can bum rush and tackle the crap out of you :lol: If 3 guys simply covered their heads well for strikes, and rushed in all at once for a tackle, no striking is gonna save you. None. True of all arts. You are gonna get taken down, end of story.

    Chuck Liddel style would be best against 3 guys. Incredible takedown defense, coupled with distant striking and the ability to get back up under pressure when taken down. 2 traits are from grappling, and one from striking.


    But again, your goal is to get the hell out of there. If 3 guys come at you all at once, pick once side, go thru that guy without getting taken down using your takedown defense, break free and run run run.

    I think all martial arts add something to the individual. Even if nothing more than clairty, which can be one of the most valuable asset in a real fight. I don't think you should judge things by others creeds. If so, then nothing would be considered good. Make sure they hold up on their claim, which I think most arts if adequatley practiced.
  • rediskarediska Posts: 1,121
    You know, guys, I think if I weighed forty pounds of muscle more than I do now, and had about a year and a half more of training, I'd be able to take on three highschool punks 160 pounds each no problem. I'd have twenty pounds on any one of them, which is that crucial difference in strength which allows you to force techniques. Get one of them in a rear naked choke standing and back away from his buddies while choking him out. Let him pass out, then go after the next one. Move the fight somewhere where the two guys have to separate for at least 20-40 seconds (i.e. swing a door open at one of them and back the other guy against it) and then break the arm of the guy who is closer to you. That leaves you one on one.
    IMO, it can be done, and it's not all that hard either. You just have to be quick about choking the first guy out and with some MMA training you can do it very fast.
  • jackjitsujackjitsu Posts: 19,023
    I think you need to put some mma gloves on with 3 friends who are all slightly smaller than you and try this experiment :wink:

    I will give you this. 3 clueless, scared, unaggressive guys, with no real will to fight, can be beaten by an aggressive trained guy.

    3 determined, violent mofo's, who come in fast and hard all at once, are going to win the vast majority of the time, no matter what training you have.

    This is my OPINION. I really wish there was more hard core data to analyze but were left extrapolating like crazy instead.
  • vanguardvanguard Posts: 743
    I think you need to put some mma gloves on with 3 friends who are all slightly smaller than you and try this experiment :wink:

    I will give you this. 3 clueless, scared, unaggressive guys, with no real will to fight, can be beaten by an aggressive trained guy.

    3 determined, violent mofo's, who come in fast and hard all at once, are going to win the vast majority of the time, no matter what training you have.

    This is my OPINION. I really wish there was more hard core data to analyze but were left extrapolating like crazy instead.
    I agree with Jack completely. I will say that in his "3 clueless, scared, unaggressive guys, with no real will to fight" scenario a striker would do better than a grappler. However, I think that is a fight that's pretty easily avoided anyway.
  • bma_matbma_mat Posts: 11,636
    Thing is, im arguing which one would you be better to survive an attack, survive as in fighting back and win the fight. If we going to argue what's best for escaping, i'd say 100m sprint, track and field. IF you had to fight multiple opponents, your best bet is striking.

    I've fought full contact (no face) vs my brother and his good friend. I had 0 pounds on my brother, but about 30 pounds on my brother's friend. I had 2 years on my brother, and 1 year on his friend.

    Fight starts, they try to rush me both at once, I throw one punch to brother's friend's midsection, he goes down. My brother runs away.

    This was like 3 years ago or so. :D
  • bma_matbma_mat Posts: 11,636
    I agree with Jack completely. I will say that in his "3 clueless, scared, unaggressive guys, with no real will to fight" scenario a striker would do better than a grappler.
    I don't see what you are agreeing to. Jack is saying the complete opposite. He says the grappeler would do better.
  • vanguardvanguard Posts: 743
    I agree with Jack completely. I will say that in his "3 clueless, scared, unaggressive guys, with no real will to fight" scenario a striker would do better than a grappler.


    I don't see what you are agreeing to. Jack is saying the complete opposite. He says the grappeler would do better.
    Ok, maybe I don't agree completely. :)

    I agree that you can't beat multiple tough motivated fighters. The "striker will do better" thing was a caveat. but the basic concept of no art working for several people holds true IMHO.
  • jackjitsujackjitsu Posts: 19,023
    My whole premise is, that against 3 determined attackers, your only option is to break free and run.

    WITH THAT IN MIND... the grappler has a slight edge of not being taken down as he tries his initial escape. The striker with no takedown defense, has almost no chance in hell.

    Imagine being surrounded by 3 guys and they are about to bum rush you. You GOTTA break thru ONE of the guys quick enough to escape.

    A fast pickup double leg, and throw him to the side, and just KEEP RUNNING forward as he hits the ground and get out of there. Hope they are not track stars.

    Now look at the striker scenario. He tries to punch one guy and he takes a few shots but doesnt move as he throws wild haymakers back at the striker. Now youre outta time. Now the other 2 have closed the distance and he's dead meat.

    If he gets REAL LUCKY, and happens to land a KO blow on the first 1,2 and the guy falls down, then he has a hole he can break free thru, but good luck with that. Compare that to the grapplers success rate of a quick takedown against someone that is not a grappler.

    I say 8/10, 9/10 times, they get you no matter what, drag you to the ground, and stomp the crap outta you.

    I think that number goes down if you are a really really good wrestler with a hard fast Sean Sherk style shot that uses the element of surprise to blow thru one of the human walls, and take off sprinting.
  • jackjitsujackjitsu Posts: 19,023
    Maybe a football player would do best in the scenario actually :lol: Blast thru one guy standing and keep running. He's used to guys trying to drag him to the ground as he is running :lol:
Sign In or Register to comment.