Couture's BlackBelt
  • Harpo
    0.00 KarmaPMPosts: 139
    If anyone else was a bit confused about the Black Belt that was draped over Couture's shoulders tonight, that was his Catch Wrestling coach, Neil Melanson. Apparently wrestling has belts or am I missing information on Melanson?

    http://www.xtremecouture.tv/Instructors/Trainer_NeilMelanson.htm
  • Harpo
    0.00 KarmaPMPosts: 139


    Right here he says he's not a BJJ guy.........

  • gspmmafan
    0.00 KarmaPMPosts: 359
    So if I submit my 12 yr old niece with an arm triangle can I get a black belt? What about a really old out of shape white belt? Does something like this qualify me for a black belt? :crazy:

    Edit: also no disrespect to Randy I like him a lot but that was really weird when he got that.

  • SamHade
    0.00 KarmaPMPosts: 581
    Strange. Latest trend. Giving black belts to guys who don't train with a gi. No disrespect to Randy--he could kick my a*s in his sleep. But why give a BB to a guy who will never wear/train with it? Too many folks are going to assume that it is a legit BJJ BB. The more this happens, the more it waters down our sport.





  • kuangren
    18.00 KarmaPMPosts: 1,404
    it's not a BJJ black belt, it's a black belt in Neil Melanson's personal style of catch wrestling. Kind of silly IMO.

  • Harpo
    0.00 KarmaPMPosts: 139


    Melanson makes it pretty clear that it's not BJJ.

    I think it's funny that the uninformed Media has no clue and instantly starts reporting the blackbelt as being BJJ. I myself was a bit confused and would likely have assumed the same had I not turned to Google and Youtube.

  • maverickcop
    0.00 KarmaPMPosts: 700
    ...and YOU get a humpback whale.... and YOU get a humpback whale.... and YOOOUUU get a black belt.... EVERYONE gets black belts!!! :rofl:

  • Harpo
    0.00 KarmaPMPosts: 139
    In my opinion, if Melanson and Couture wanted to create a ranking system that is unique the the training style that they've developing / are developing, they should have created a show of rank that is just as unique as their art. A belt is for a Gi. They could have done unique shorts, ankle bands, patches, anything.

    Problem is this:

    The colored belt system is just SO caramelized into American views on Martial Arts that having anything else to show rank would have required so much "selling" to the public. Using a belt is full circle marketing. A colored belt has so much appeal in our culture based on its familiarity that it simply required if you are trying to expand a customer base and establish yourself as legitimate.

    I would have had a TON of respect had they kept a folk level or grassroots approach and made a show of rank that is unique.... beat their own path...... "Screw the norm. This is ours and we'll do it our way"........

  • jandaim
    0.00 KarmaPMPosts: 54
    Too many folks are going to assume that it is a legit BJJ BB. The more this happens, the more it waters down our sport.


    I don't think it counts as "watering down our sport" when an accomplished grappler like Randy Couture is misperceived as having a BJJ BB. Actually I think it might do the opposite, lending credibility.

    It's not like BJJ grappling is so vastly different from other "types" of grappling that a guy like Randy, Matt Hughes, etc couldn't easily have "blackbelt skill" if they donned a gi for a couple of months.

    http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x8amsh_randy-couture-vs-ronaldo-jacare-sou_sport

  • Capps
    2.00 KarmaPMPosts: 22
    Randy did well against Souza from what I saw of their xmission grappling match. As long as they are honest about what system they are trying to promote, I don't see the problem.

  • rdc569
    0.00 KarmaPMPosts: 312
    Whatever they call it, it's grappling. They want to rank their students to reward them. That is great. Also, I see why they chose the traditional BJJ ranks... they take a ton of shit from BJJ. Melansan trained under Parisyan too, didn't he?

    Could you imagine what the old school Judo guys were saying when the IBJJF adopted the Judo type belt rankings that replaced the old school white/blue/navy blue belt system? It probably sounded a ton like the grumblings on here.

  • Harpo
    0.00 KarmaPMPosts: 139
    Melansan trained under Parisyan too, didn't he?


    Yes.

    And I agree with what you are saying. It's their art that they are organizing/developing. They can do what they want with it. I get why they are using belts to show rank. As I said, I would have loved to see another method used to show rank, but if they want to use belts, so be it and I wish them well. As long as it's a legit art that's functional in the real world, peace to 'em.

  • jackjitsujackjitsu
    1036.00 KarmaPMPosts: 17,713
    Platinum VIP Member
    They just need to get consistent. If they say they are not jiu jitsu and these are not jiu jitsu belts, then stop using the words on the website

    ---------------------

    Our members here at Xtreme Couture know our head Jits guy (Neil Melanson) as a coach who knows the science of Jiu Jitsu.

    Melanson dedicates his time to his students and constantly works on perfecting his teaching skills. Instead of simply focusing on how techniques are done, he also teaches why they work and how they fit into the bigger picture.

    PUBLIC CLASSES TAUGHT:
    • Jiu-Jitsu (Beginner , Intermediate, Advanced)
    • Private Lessons
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  • Harpo
    0.00 KarmaPMPosts: 139
    They just need to get consistent. If they say they are not jiu jitsu and these are not jiu jitsu belts, then stop using the words on the website

    ---------------------

    Our members here at Xtreme Couture know our head Jits guy (Neil Melanson) as a coach who knows the science of Jiu Jitsu.

    Melanson dedicates his time to his students and constantly works on perfecting his teaching skills. Instead of simply focusing on how techniques are done, he also teaches why they work and how they fit into the bigger picture.

    PUBLIC CLASSES TAUGHT:
    • Jiu-Jitsu (Beginner , Intermediate, Advanced)
    • Private Lessons


    Great observation.

    Melanson clearly has jiu jitsu experience but he expresses in interviews the fact that his system is a hybrid (hell, in that one video he says flat out that he's NOT a bjj guy and that he's a catch wrestler....). My gut feeling is that his jiu jitsu classes are indeed the hybrid method that he developed. The title of Jiu Jitsu sounds a lot sexier than a title of Catch Wrestling. Of course we can only speculate without experiencing it for ourselves, but do you think they are using BJJ as a title while teaching their all encompassing hybrid? The average Joe Schmoe looking to do a Martial Art will pick Jiu Jitsu over Wrestling 8 times out of 10 based simply on the name...

    This is a little off topic, but it relates.... I like the way Jake Shields did it with the hybrid style that he's developed and marketed. Shields came from a strong wrestling background before linking up with Cesar Gracie. Of course Shields eventually earned his Black Belt under Gracie (one of only 3 Black Belts handed out by C. Gracie if I'm not mistaken). Long story short, Shields went on to develop a more aggressive method of Jiu Jitsu that combined many aspects of his former wrestling days. He named his method American Jiu Jitsu and started to develop his approach based on his own theories for fighting, self defense, etc.

    My point in bringing up Shields' "American Jiu Jitsu" is that it has grown in a similar fashion to Melanson's method. Melanson has multiple backgrounds and has seemed to combine them into it's own creature. It has proven to be successful..... Randy is still whipping a** at 47 and we all saw what Chael Sonnen did against Anderson Silva (Chael spent time training with Melanson and Couture for that fight). With the fact that Melanson's method was developed in house with Randy The Natural Couture, it seems to me that the marketing power to draw in students is limited only by those who want to promote this system as a martial art worth studying.

    With a man like Couture being a believer and promoter of the system, why not coin your own name and roll with it?

  • rdc569
    0.00 KarmaPMPosts: 312
    The title of Jiu Jitsu sounds a lot sexier than a title of Catch Wrestling. Of course we can only speculate without experiencing it for ourselves, but do you think they are using BJJ as a title while teaching their all encompassing hybrid? The average Joe Schmoe looking to do a Martial Art will pick Jiu Jitsu over Wrestling 8 times out of 10 based simply on the name...


    That sounds like something a BJJ guy would say. I don't know if most people know what Jiu Jitsu is though.

  • Harpo
    0.00 KarmaPMPosts: 139
    That sounds like something a BJJ guy would say. I don't know if most people know what Jiu Jitsu is though.


    I meant it more in a marketing sense. The guys are running a school. Bodies in class equals dollars in pocket.

    It doesn't matter if people know what it means. Most people don't know what Tang So Do, Jeet Koon Do, Tae Kwon Do, etc etc etc means either, yet those schools are flooded with people trying to learn each respective art. The average UFC fan doesn't know what Jiu Jitsu is either..... How often have you heard someone say that "jiu jitsu is kind of like wrestling". They likely don't have a clue. But, they know the name, "jiu jitsu". It's said to them probably a dozen times during any given UFC event. It's already recognizable to a growing number of potential students even if it's only by name.

    Try opening a "wrestling" school and watch that ship sink. Most people will think WWF or High School Wrestling. It's especially hard to market Catch Wrestling because most people on the street looking for something to train in will be like, "Wrestling? Why the f*** would I want to learn how to wrestle? I want to learn how to defend myself and fight.......".

  • jackjitsujackjitsu
    1036.00 KarmaPMPosts: 17,713
    Platinum VIP Member
    I actually have a problem with guys like these who openly say they are not jiu jitsu, do not hold a jiu jitsu rank, and yet advertise using the words jiu jitsu.

    Jiu jitsu earned that name recognition through many decades of hard struggles. I frankly dont think they have the (not in a legal sense) right to use the name.


    So youre a "catch wrestler" great. SAY IT! STAND BEHIND IT! SINK OR SAIL using that term.

    There was a time BJJ was taught only out of garages in the states. Did those guys open schools and call it "Joes hybrid TKD" ? just to try and get students???

    Doesnt really matter. Those single person "invented" systems will never catch on and fade into the sunset and BJJ will go one for many years.
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  • gannas
    0.00 KarmaPMPosts: 712
    To me Black belt means not just having skill but having knowledge which means you are a true master in the art. I would easily trade training with a guy an old guy that knows tons of shit vs a younger guy that doesnt know as much but can whoop a**.

    But thats a BJJ black belt, I cant say the same for a Karate black belt cause I see 12 year olds with those on.... :popcorn:

  • weed
    0.00 KarmaPMPosts: 5
    fu...ck the haters. you look down your noses on randy like your better and more sperior to him lol but yet hell fu...ck you up in seconds.

  • jackjitsujackjitsu
    1036.00 KarmaPMPosts: 17,713
    Platinum VIP Member
    fu...ck the haters. you look down your noses on randy like your better and more sperior to him lol but yet hell fu...ck you up in seconds.


    You create and account so you can cry haters this... haters that...haters haters hater all over the place?

    Man up and stop being such a cry baby douchebag... BANNED.

    People calling BULLSHIT, is not the same thing as hating. Get your facts straight.
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  • Zavinout
    23.00 KarmaPMPosts: 392

    But thats a BJJ black belt, I cant say the same for a Karate black belt cause I see 12 year olds with those on.... :popcorn:


    I was at a wedding recently and a kid there, 12ish, was a black belt in TKD. Somebody mentioned that i was doing martial arts and the conversation went something like this:

    P1: So i hear you are doing Ju Jitsu, how is it going, gotten any belts yet?

    Me: Well i've justed started, about 1 year ago, i hope maybe if i train very hard i can get a black belt in 10-12 years.

    P1: Oh, like Stephen, Andys son, he has a black belt but in TKD. Is the belt system the same?

    Andy(kids father): Yes, that is same thing.

    Me: ...... ?????? ...... ????

    Didn't know how to respond anything at all, i mean, i just stated it would take me as a grown up 12 years to get it ( wishful thinking from me maybe, but i am allowed to dream :) ), and yet his twelve year old son already has a BB. How on earth can you believe its the same thing?

  • jackjitsujackjitsu
    1036.00 KarmaPMPosts: 17,713
    Platinum VIP Member
    Duuuuuuuuuuuuude..... ???????? was your response?

    I IMMEDIATELY shut that nonsense down.

    My response tends to be something like:

    No, they are not remotely the same. The very first belt in BJJ, the blue belt, is greater than MOST black belts in other arts. A 12 year old isnt even capable of a black belt in jiu jitsu, this is a REAL fighting system (always have to call the BS like this :lol: ) This kids TKD teacher would get owned by non-BJJ black belts all day long :mrgreen: I had my TKD black belt when I started BJJ, and day one, it became obvious that most of the white belts would school me in a real fight. So no, they are not remotely the same. That kids TKD black belt would mean nothing in a BJJ class
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  • Zavinout
    23.00 KarmaPMPosts: 392
    I agree i probably should have said something, but didn't know how what to say without him looking completely stupid. I guess i am not very confrontational, i am usually happy to let people walk around in their ignorance.

  • jandaim
    0.00 KarmaPMPosts: 54
    Why bother fighting that battle?

    Do you really care if "Andy" believes his 12 year old's black belt is the same as the one you will get in 10 years? Is it that necessary that we "educate" the public on just what it is that we do?

    I get people assuming all the time that I am like Kramer from Seinfeld beating the hell out of little kids in the dojo, or I get people who think I train in an octagon with full contact.

    Who cares, just train.

  • jackjitsujackjitsu
    1036.00 KarmaPMPosts: 17,713
    Platinum VIP Member
    Analogy time:


    Joe: I heard youre a PHD, is that right?
    Eric: Yes
    Joe: Cool my 12 year old just got his PHD too from XXXYYY online university, thats the same right?
    Eric: Ummm I got my PHD from Harvard....


    Does anyone REALLY expect Eric to let that just slide??? :rofl:
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  • aiseop
    1316.00 KarmaPMPosts: 3,010
    except it takes about 7 yrs to get a Ph.D. (after college) and it takes 10-12yrs to get a BJJ black belt.

    so when someone talks to me about their son's black belt that they got in 1 year, I mention that it will take me longer to get my jiu-jitsu black belt than it did to get my Ph.D. from Berkeley.

    now that's a conversation stopper.

    :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

  • jandaim
    0.00 KarmaPMPosts: 54
    I understand where you are coming from, but again, who the heck cares? If you really believe that your kids phd/black belt is the same... why does it matter to me?

    If I was trying to close a sale on a potential new student who has doubts about signing a contract then I think it's a battle worth fighting, but against some random ignorant dad? why?

  • rdc569
    0.00 KarmaPMPosts: 312
    Did those guys open schools and call it "Joes hybrid TKD" ? just to try and get students???


    Good point... I agree that they shouldn't advertise as being a Jiu Jitsu club, but I see no issue with them saying that they are Jiu Jitsu influenced. Especially if they are very influenced (like it seems they are).



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